Spells: Cantata of Soothing and the Clarity line of spells should not stack

[Kirdan]

per this patch ~6 months after Luclin,

Cantata of Soothing should no longer overwrite Clarity spells.

Cantata and Clarity spells were not stacking prior to this patch due to using the same slot 2 for mana regen. Cantata should overwrite Clarity and Clarity II on p99.

[Scalem]

Spicy.

[Kirdan]

BTW, unsure if this also applies to Cantata of Replenishment or not. Cantata of Soothing is the lvl 34 version and Cantata of Replenishment is the lvl 55 version, but they do the exact same things with different values.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010223..._stacking.html

21:30:27 Feb 23, 2001

This post was made in Bard Talk (Part Three) by Absor:

All bard effects stack. This is so universal that there is special code
that says if caster = bard, stack. That's why cantana will go up when
C2 is up, because ALL bard songs stack. Enchanters don't have the same
code, and C2 is 1 mana/tick weaker than cantana so it won't overwrite,
thus C2 bounces.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010204...ML/053745.html

Kenross
Station Member posted 01-31-2001 02:49 PM
Absor - A couple of comments after looking at the Enchanter thread:
Illusions can't be removed except by: a) waiting them out, b) casting dispell on yourself (which may remove other buffs) or c) zoning. I would really HATE it if you caused illusions to continue from zone-to-zone unless you added the ability to remove the illusion by clicking on it.

Some of our songs (Cantata, 55, for example) stack with spells (Clarity and Clarity 2 in this case), but they have to be applied in the correct order. The spell has to be applied, then the song can be sung. We have to stop the song in order for the spell buff to be applied if we are already singing it.

It would be nice if we didn't have to do this, but please be VERY careful if you do. I would hate to have you make it so that the Enchanter spell can be cast while the song is active by overwriting the song, and having the song have no effect unless we stop and start it again. That would be worse than the current case. I never play with spells on, I'd have no clue when I should do this.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../053745-4.html

Bones7
Station Member posted 02-02-2001 09:57 AM

...

Could you re-appraise our mana drain songs (35 and 57)? Tests in PvP (of the level 35 song admittedly) shows it taking about 10 minutes to completely drain a high level player, much less a mob. Instrument does not increase the mana drain either even though an instrument is supposed to be able to be used with the song. The drain rate can effectively be canceled out by Clarity2 (enc) plus Cantana (bard 55).

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20030816...sisVer3.21.xls

by Reed Stormwind (E'ci) [Forlorn]
Version 3.21 (11/15/02)

Cantata of Soothing

Does not stack with Hymn(6), Overwritten by Cantata (55). Slows stamina loss AND regeneration. Clarity/Harvest cannot be cast when this
is in effect (but stacks otherwise). Does not stack with itself.

Cantata of Replenishment

Overwrites Hymn(6), Cantata(34). Overwritten by Chorus(58). Does not stack with itself.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010204...ML/052807.html

Talanic
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 03:16 PM
One of the major midlevel concerns is Selo's Consonant Chain, a snare-type song.
It was accidentally nerfed because a 51+ version was put in that was overpowered. The correction for the 51+ version broke the lower version.

Currently, Chains can be expected to break anywhere from 0 to 9 seconds after application, with about a 30-60% resist rate. It also doesn't always stop things.

A higher level problem is that bard armor is frequently made with chainmail AC (though it's usually corrected a few weeks later). The new Velious armors are no exception--all the other Velious armors are same as Kunark armors, but with stats instead of spells, same or greater AC. Bard Velious armor has less AC...and the stats aren't too impressive either (2 str 3 cha?).

Also, there are STILL no mid-level instruments.

A HUGE thing I've been pushing for is for enchanter haste and bard haste to stack better. That would encourage the classes to group. Bard hastes are puny compared to enchanter's.

If an Enchanter is in the group, the Enchanter takes over all the Bard's roles but can do a better job of them. Mesmerize? Enchanter. Haste? Heh, twice as fast. Snare? Bah, Bard snare doesn't work. Clarity/C2 stack with Manasong, sure, but the party would be better off ditching the bard for a tank since the Enchanter outdoes the Bard in all ways. Haste stacking would allow for cooperation there.

Also, check back on the guy in the Temple of Solusek Ro. He says to ask him later about a special bardic weapon; he never responds. It's been more than a year.

Dante00
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 03:30 PM
Ok here are the minor and major problems I see facing bards.

...

Song stacking

You simply need to fix the stacking problem. I hate having to constantly stop cantina for
clarity or regen songs. I hate playing level 50 song and having the enc wonder why sos
isn't sticking. Quite simply make it so bard songs dont prevent songs from being casted,
and prevent a slower bard haste effect from ruining a better haste effect.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010206.../052807-2.html

kaluian
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 05:47 PM
Hello Absor. I play a 55th bard and a 52nd bard. I have been playing my bard since 1 month after the release of EverQuest, and I have completed several high end bard tasks, including several Sky Quests, and my Epic Weapon. Thus, I feel I am qualified to comment about bards.
First, let me suggest the one nerf that I believe is justified for our class. Add mana-usage to our 27th level charm song. As it is, this charm is ridiculously powerful, and makes soloing gobs of experience easy. Adding manausage to this song, as in the 37th level charm, would definitely be justified.

However, despite the power of our charm, there are several issues with the higher level game. First, let me address our crowd control abilities.

Our crowd control is perfectly balanced. I can mez 3 mobs consistently, 4 with a bit of luck and while taking a bit of pounding. However, our charm begins to decrease in usefulness as we level. Quite simply, the level cap on charm needs to be raised from 51 to 54 or 55. The level cap on SoT needs to be raised to 57. And, while we're discussing level caps, the level cap on Appalling Screech (Fear) needs to be raised to 55 or 56. The songs are perfect, and just as they should be, however, the level caps simply need reworking.

For ideas on our healing, damage output, haste, and mana regeneration, please refer to the excellent articles Thott linked to. Also note that bards were originally the only class with mana regeneration abilities, and enchanters were given the ability as not to give bards a monopoly. I feel that our abilities should reflect this, and slightly increasing the efficiency of Chorus of Clarity and Cantana would not be out of line.

Please allow the enchanter spells Breeze, Clarity, and Clarity 2 to overwrite Cantana. It is obnoxious as all hell to have to stop my manasong every time some caster in my group wants a c2.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010207.../052807-3.html

Absor
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 07:04 PM

...

>"Song stacking
You simply need to fix the stacking problem. I hate having to constantly stop cantina for
clarity or regen songs. I hate playing level 50 song and having the enc wonder why sos
isn't sticking. Quite simply make it so bard songs dont prevent songs from being casted,
and prevent a slower bard haste effect from ruining a better haste effect. "<

Ok, on the list.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010306.../052807-4.html

Sephrenia-GD
Station Member posted 01-29-2001 08:34 PM
Wow this thread is getting long but here's my 2cp.
Most of us think that our kunark armor stinks apart from the nice AC. You took away the stats and the effects are way more than unbalanced. Invigor on the vambraces and invigorate on the breastplate while rangers are getting a gate, clerics are getting Complete Heal. Shamans get a 250pt dd on their bracer. Hello? The stupid invigorate is pointless we have stamina effect in our lvl 55 song Cantana of Replenishment as well as our jiggy song. The same with the Plane of Growth armor. People are getting nice effects on their boots, do bards? No. The bard breastplate is 42AC with some stats and lvl 51 song. What do clerics get? A lvl 57 heal as well as 42 AC! Where is this balance?

So I would like to see our kunark and PoG armor revised and upgraded.

The other main grumble is that any caster/enchanter will tell you that we have stacking problems with our lvl 55 song Cantana of replenishment. While singing that song no one can cast clarity or any type of regen/chloropast spell on any member of the group. YET if the song is stopped and clarity and/or regen/chloro is cast and then restart the lvl 55 song. Yes it stacks that way. I advise you while you are doing your testing. Be a bard in a multi group hunt for one day and find out how annoying this is starting and stoping all the time. IF the song stacks one way it should stack the other way. It needs to be fixed.

Finally if enough bards haven't told you, that the drum graphic looks pathetic. Put us back to gliding if you want to. At least that looked more bardic than that rubbish.

Sephrenia Sweetawine
60th song
Ayonae Ro

https://web.archive.org/web/20010306.../052807-5.html

Keadaian
Station Member posted 01-30-2001 02:26 AM

...

>"Song stacking
You simply need to fix the stacking problem. I hate having to constantly stop cantina for
clarity or regen songs. I hate playing level 50 song and having the enc wonder why sos
isn't sticking. Quite simply make it so bard songs dont prevent songs from being casted,
and prevent a slower bard haste effect from ruining a better haste effect. "<

Ok, on the list.

Just want to make sure we're clear here. The problem is NOT that the song does not stack with the spell. The problem is that the spell can not be cast while the song is in effect. Most of the time, it's just a matter of the shaman saying "Hey bard, can you stop the heal song so I can cast regen" which is annoying but ok. however, if Regen goes down mid battle it gets a lot dicier.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010215...ML/055105.html

Aanar
Station Member posted 02-06-2001 08:33 AM
Well my primary characters is a cleric (now 56). I started a bard after about 5 months after release to play on the side as an alt. Mostly I soloed. The short downtime was great and I had a lot of fun when I needed a break. My bard is 46 now.
I've been in groups where the difference between us all dying and pulling it off has been the bard singing mana song so I would have mana to heal people. From all the songs I have at 46, I have a hard time finding anything more effective for a well balanced group. As soon as an enchanter shows up, I try to have them haste since it's better anyway, the extra mana they get from the song should more than make up for it. Manasong and snare is about all I end up doing then. I figure the extra mana lets the casters nuke more or otherwise reduce downtime much more than if I played dots. I guess once I get the new slow song it will be a different story. The level 34 mana/regen/jig song is nice, but the instrument requirement makes it hard to twist in.

And as others say, I can't really stand twisting for more than a few hours. I like the idea of more combo songs. It would be nicer to just put something in client side to somehow auto-twist.

From the number of mana drain songs in game going to bards, you'd think bards where intended to be masters of stealing mana. As it is now, enchanters are better at this. IMO, enchanters are masters of enough other things (mana regen, haste, crowd control), perhaps upping these songs to make bards masters of draining mana would be an apropriate specialist niche.

As it is now bards seem to be masters of running, resists, and maybe flexibility. Perhaps that is enough.

One thing to fix, please make clarity 2 stack with the 55 catana. As it is now, the enchanter gets annoyed having to ask the bard to drop the song to give everyone clarity.

Either give bards a higher or equal haste % song than enchanters or put in more stacking haste songs (~5-10%).

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-3.html

DoctorDoctor
Station Member posted 02-08-2001 11:31 AM
You're doing an awesome job Absor. Thanks for the patience to read all of these posts. I didn't have a chance to read them all, so pardon if this is redundant.
1) Remove the haste component of lvl 57 song rousing rondo. Then it could be twisted with lvl 54 celerity song. As it is now the haste is so slow that it does not seem to be an upgrade at all. Maybe it wasn't meant as an upgrade, but because it has haste component it seems like it is. I realize it raises str, attack and provides damage shield but all in all pure haste (celerity) seems better.

2) Remove the time based restriction on 56 level songs Highsun and Midnight. Are there any other spells that are time restricted like this? Just wondering why these are. They dont seem to be so awesomely powerful that it would really matter. As it is now, hardly any bard would keep them memmed since they take up 25% of your spell slots to do so and have 50% chance of not even being castable.

I think this especially goes for Song of Midnight. It would be nice upgrade to level 26 fear song, but because its not usable half the time we cant use it really. There is hardly any reason to ever use this song instead of lvl 26 song.

3) I wish level 55 bombastic bellow had faster recast time. 222 damage isn't really that much at level 55+ anyway so I rarely have it memmed.

4) Remove instrument requirement for occlusion of sound. Then simply make it do less without instrument like most songs.

5) It would be nice if level 57 mana drain song would drain more mana. As it is now you can almost med faster than I can drain. Wis/int debuffs certainly helps but in the entire scheme of things not by that much. Now if this were AoE then that would be better I suppose.

6) Level 49 shield of songs is a great song, but the noise created is kinda annoying. Sounds like an alarm clock. A lot of people complain to me about it.

7) It would be very very nice if enchanter mezz would overwrite bard mezz. As you may know, if bard mezzes mob then enchanter mezzes the same mob, the mob becomes unmezzed completely when bard mezz wears off.

8) It would be nice if clarity, clarity II and HP regen could be cast over lvl 55 mana song. It's really annoying trying to coordinate dropping song before casting these spells.

9) I don't have the Ervaj line of songs yet, but it seems to me that requiring an instrument isn't optimal. Seems like it should be like most songs, more haste when using an instrument, less when not.

Don't have any comments on 58-60 level songs since I'm 57 level.

-Dumaine
57 Bard
The Rathe

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-4.html

Iwave24
Station Member posted 02-10-2001 02:10 AM
What can I say,the defensive skills added on the test server are nice but too little a little too late.I keep hearing talk about balancing classes when little if anything is being done.
At 33 I am finding it hard to level.Just yesterday I was grouped with a druid,ranger,paladin,enchanter and a shaman in the overthere.Every few minutes I started getting complaints in downtime to turn my mana song off because the chanter couldnt cast clarity.Then after I did, people started asking me why I wasn't playing the mana song.When we were fighting I was twisting 4 songs as best I could,(mana song, anthem , hymn and psalm of cooling though only 3 showed up during my twists)when all the casters start nagging me to play the mana song.The shaman asked me to just play the mana song and melee because his buffs were better and he needed my song to stack with clarity so he could continue to cast his dot and still have mana for buffs.So it seems I was relegated to mana battery during the whole time we were grouped.All the time I spent lvling,I kept hearing that the mana song would be a blessing that would give me more opportunities,Had I known that being a bard past 32 was just going relegate me to mana battery,I would have chosen another class. there are several things that keep us from being a balanced class

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../055105-5.html

gestaltmind
Station Member posted 02-11-2001 09:47 AM
Actually thinking about it- simpler coding would be....
Okay- Bards can have 3 songs playing.
You can't start a 4th song.

This would be trivial to program and achieve the same affect.

Code would involve changing the code to which checks that another song isn't playing to check that three other songs were not playing. No other code changes needed except something ot make sure you couldn't twist a 3/4 slot.

I think the idea of a good haste song which didn't stack and a poor haste song which did stack would be great. You could make a low level song (L11-L19) with poor haste (5%) which stacked. This low level stackable haste would give groups a reason to pull in Bards. Then make high level haste songs (L40+) which didn't stack.

As an enchanter, I drool over the idea of having a bard in my group. I have to work around them a bit (the fact that they constantly retarget me to them is an issue) but clarity does stack with mana song in the correct order and then you have almost unlimited mana L45-L52 (after that it is still fast- just not fast enough. B) )

[Ennewi]

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/his...es-2001-2.html

------------------------------
September 25, 2001 3:00 am
------------------------------

** Spell Changes **

- We have removed the changes to bard song stacking that were made with
the recent emergency patch. We will be reviewing those changes for
possible update in a future patch.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/his...es-2001-2.html

------------------------------
December 6, 2001 3:00 am
------------------------------

*Hot Items* (The items we're considering top priority)

- Bard issues: We're working to correct the problems bards have been
experiencing with their songs.

https://everquest.allakhazam.com/his...es-2002-1.html

------------------------------
February 13, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------

** Spell Related **

- Eye of Zomm and Eye of Tallon are now non-KoS in a fashion similar to
familiars
- Koadic's Endless Intellect stacking has been fixed. If a player has
Koadic's Endless Intellect on them and anyone casts Breeze, Clarity,
Clarity 2, Boon of the Clear Mind, Gathering of the Mind, or Gift of
Pure Thought on them, it will fail and the Koadic's will remain.

------------------------------
May 8, 2002 3:00 am
------------------------------

- Bard songs should in general overwrite fewer spells

...

- Cantata of Soothing should no longer overwrite Clarity spells
- Cantata and Chorus of Replenishment should no longer overwrite Acumen
- Bladecoat no longer overwrites Clarity II

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20040128...hp?t=60763&amp

Clarion
Newbie
Newbie


Joined: 07 Mar 2001
Posts: 12
Location: Los Angeles, CA, USA
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2001 4:09 am Post subject: Song Stacking and Other Issues. Reply with quote
I really think that all Bard Songs should stack with any Item and Spell effects, without generating any conflicts. The Bard Song should Add to the existing effects (Combat buffs and Clarity), Override or be overridden for the duration (if one effect is stronger, such as with SoW), or at least not interfere with existing effects (such as Enchanter Charm/Mez). As it is, the songs will stack, if cast in one order, or Not stack, if cast in another.
Simply allowing such 'universal' stacking would solve many Bard complaints, such as the 'I feel worthless on a Raid' gripe. And this wouldn't require any changes to the Bard's song list, except to replace the already demeaning Erval's line.

<Glororhan>
Guest

PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2001 7:48 pm Post subject: Song Stacking and Other Issues. Reply with quote
I hate to break your sad stacking hearts, but most bard songs do stack. Take all our buffs for example, that is except for haste. And, if haste did stack, achieving 70% haste with an enchanter in group would be way too easy. Our clarity and regain songs stack with all others, and those are very important.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010330...gs/Song34v.htm

Update: 01/12/2001 08:40:29

CANTANA OF SOOTHING
Level: 34

Cautions:

This song will block enchanter mana restoration spells (breeze, clarity, etc..) from taking hold, but will stack with them after they are taken effect on target.

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010221...ML/000665.html

Author Topic: Bard Talk item list
Absor
Station Member posted 02-16-2001 12:29 PM
About these lists:
First and foremost, understand that this is only a list of concerns to be brought to the Live Team. This is not a list of promises, and I'm certainly not telling you that any or all of these items will be changed or implemented.

Also, there are three types of items that I don't have listed here. Epic Quests, Magic Resistances in Velious and Mid-level quests. Those three items were mentioned by enough classes that I've pulled them out for separate examination.

All items are currently marked with NONE for status. Obviously we've already started working on some items, you've seen the lists from the patch messages on the Test Server. I will be updating the status for items early next week to reflect those potential changes and with any responses from the team. I just wanted to get these lists out to you fresh.

I want these lists to be final as you see them now, but I know there will need to be changes made. So this list is not final. But if you want something added to or removed from the list, please be convincing about the change. At this point I don't want to tack on too many more items, since the team is already reviewing the original list.

Thanks for the input so far.

Alan

ITEM: Song ‘Stacking’.

DESCRIPTION: Cantana (of Replenishment - 34 and Soothing – 55) and Clarity (and Harvest) will stack, sort of. If the target has the effects of a Cantana on him and someone tries to cast a Clarity (or Harvest) spell on the target, the Clarity (or Harvest) will not stick. But if the Clarity spell is on a target, the bard Cantana will take effect just fine. The Cantana(s) also have the same problem with regeneration-type spells. This appears to be a bug.

STATUS: None

Fyreheart
Station Member posted 02-16-2001 03:36 PM
Song stacking issue is not limited to clarity. I think it's catana that both heals and gives mana. I can cast regen on a target if the bard has stopped singing the song. If he is singing, no regen spell will hold.

Kellen
Station Member posted 02-17-2001 12:23 AM
Pardon me for not reading through all the responses or if I missed this on the initial post, but was the Clarity II/Gift of Pure Thought not being able to overwrite Cantana problem raised at all? It's annoying having enchanters request bards to stop playing Cantana so they can cast clarity2 on the bard's group members.

Trainspotter
Station Member posted 02-19-2001 07:21 AM
Issues on the list: 35
Bug fixes: 18
Balance issues: 16
Nerf: 1
Hmmm...

These lists are to document issues before a lock-down on balance? I am concerned that over half the list could easily be called bug-fixes... some of which have little to do with class balance. I have no idea why the drum animation leads the list... this bug has been in the game for two years, and is totally cosmetic. It should have been fixed a year and a half ago! This fix has NOTHING to do with class balance! Stacking issues with clarity, catana & such are bugs that have been in the game for months... /boggle

Please, Absor, sort the list like this:

Bug fixes - Bugs to be fixed do not affect game/class balance - like Selo's Song of Travel on the Melodic Breast Plate!

Enhancements/balance fixes - issues that make bards as useful & effective as other classes - like song haste stacking with haste spells.

I hate to even mention the lute of the howler... how meaningless is that! You are removing a lvl 55-60 plus item to protect the fragile egos of THE MOST PAMPERED class in the game. A bardic balance non-issue!

https://web.archive.org/web/20020127...html?item=5374

Sable Xegony Reply... By: Anonymous
Posted @ Mon, May 21st 11:36 AM 2001 Score: Default[2.00]
HI there, i have the robe, so i thought id clear some things up for you all. some had mentioned this robe is 1 mana per tick, im not sure what a tick is but this is 1 mana per second.

I calculated this robe and tested it against clarity breeze clarity 2 clarity 2 with mana song and etc

The add from clarity = 1.6 mana per second
the add from C2 = 2.2 mana per second
the add from this robe is = 1.0 mana per second

if tick = 5 seconds then robe = 5 mana a tick

All i know the robe is 1 mana a tick , and will stack with other series in this line.

If you had all 3 flowing thought items 1though 3, your reganing more mana then c2 3.0 mana per tick.

Now the percentage of mana reganed is low, now where compared to melee haste, but C2 plus mana song together is super low percentage too, you guys have to take into consideration that.


Anyway happy argueing, thought id make your live lesss complicacated. remember its

per second i did this calculation NOt per tick, i dont even know what per tick is lol.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010124...ML/000262.html

Dairus
Station Member posted 10-06-2000 07:06 AM
Kaldivar, you really hit on something with the title of this thread "why bother anymore?".
I have several characters, most of whom are in their mid 30's and a couple in their 40's <druid and enchanter> but never have I been as frustrated as I am by my 35th level Bard. I love the concept of bards. I love the rp potential that a bard offers. I completely appreciate their self-less nature within the dynamic of a group and I am occasionally in awe of their soloing capabilities <if you don't mind wearing out several keyboards with all the work that soloing involves>. I REALLY want to play this character more often because for the first time in 18 months of playing EQ this is the first class that continually excites my imagination every time I log him on.

However... Upon reaching the early 30's I began to notice a change in the bard's effectiveness. This has a lot to do with other peoples' understanding of this class <within a group> as much as it does with my responsibility to learn how to play this class to it's fullest potential, but OMG is it irritating.

At level 35 I can no longer effectively ae mez a medium-sized pull of blue lizzies in CT. I can't really justify tanking since my melee skills seem to have completely evaporated before my eyes and charm? Ack! No thank you. Unless I'm doing something terribly wrong <not out of the realm of possibilities> at level 35 my single target charm <level 27 song> lasts approximately 10 to 15 secs. It's not continual so I have to re-start it when charm breaks. This not only shoots me to the top of the aggro list for the now formerly-charmed MoB but in places like Lower Guk, where pulls of 4 or more mobs are the norm, the need to constantly manage a single target keeps me from benefiting the group as a whole with either melee buffs with instruments or mana regen for the healer(s). At that point I'm nothing more than a mana sponge to the healer and perhaps a liability to the whole group since that healing mana is better spent on the puller who is on 3 other mobs hate lists.

No enchanter in the group? Don't worry we have a bard! Yeah, I've heard that before and not long after that well-intentioned yet fateful in-group message I see my ae mezzes are resisted and my single MoB charm breaks and I'm stunned and I can't melee well enough or long enough to give the real tanks a chance to jump in and taunt it off me and I'm in turn beaten to blue-armored pulp at which point I'm guaranteed to see....Loading, please wait.

Ahh, well, maybe it's me. Maybe it's my responsibility to educate each and every group of near-total strangers that I join/meet. Perhaps I need to make a social hot-key the says in-group "Hi there, I'm a bard! I'm not an enchanter, not a warrior/tank melee damager, not a wizard or even a rogue. I'm the guy who makes you all REALLY REALLY good at what it is that you do and it makes me happy and at times proud to do so. Now, just so everyone in the group understands that I don't mez, I don't charm, I don't tank, I don't save lives with my heals, I don't have the AC to pull effectively and btw I don't run fast indoors". The group leader then thinks to him/herself "Umm, why do we need a bard? Jeez, haste stack changes and all this baggage?" At which point I should hit group hot-key #2 and say "What I do offer is the opportunity to make the melee-ers in the group the best they can be,making them hit harder, faster and more accurately and in turn shorten each battles' duration <provided that stats really do matter... > which might just save some healer some mana and make for quicker pulls and faster experience gain because there's less downtime since they're casting maybe one less 300 mana cost heal on that 1400hp-having warrior. I'm the person who will, on his own, have the casters in the group regaining mana quicker and when there's an enchanter in the group, stacked clarity and my mana song = mana regen at ungodly rates <thus further shortening downtime>.

Oh well, I don't think those will all fit on a hot-key and I'm not sure I'm up to the task of educating the 2,500 people on my server as to why they should want a bard in their group anyway. I think I'll log on my enchanter. Yeah, that's what I'll do. But wait, first I need to make a group hot-key detailing why people HAVE to use /assist or they're gonna break my enthralls and then tell them about taunting to break mezz so that I'm not aggro'd on and............

Taliskar
Station Member posted 10-25-2000 12:25 PM
I play a bard, level 38 at the moment. He is by far the weakest character I have ever played. His use is simple in any good group... he plays mana song between fights, twists 3 group buffs and melees during fights. That's it. No magic tricks, nothing fancy. One of those buffs doesn't include haste now... so I pick another.
If things go bad, he has the ability to pull out a few cool things. If an evac is called, I stand near the transport and play my AOE fear song. If the monster isn't running at least he is hitting me and not the porter...

If something is on the chanter or healer, I can try to charm it. It never really works, lasts no time if it does, but I have to say... that is the one best taunt I have ever seen. No warrior can taunt as well. I can usually live till the chanter gets a mes on the mob... usually.

If I'm running outside, I'm the fastest thing on two legs. Well except for shadow men it seems... but I've out raced Grimfeather to zone more then once. I'm fast enough, but I still carry JBOOTS! Why? because they are fast enough, work every time on a click, and allow me to twist one more song. Every little bit helps.

Is our mes useless, yes. I sometimes try to help lower level players break the orc camps in EC. I step in, safe in the knowledge that they cant really hit me, and play AOE mes. I can keep about half of them standing still... about half the time... and they are a good many levels under me? I know, I know, my charisma is ONLY 150... any self respecting twink would have a 200 right? It still helps the newbies, and I get the satisfaction that the orcs really can't hurt me.

All this and I still play a bard. WHY? I'll tell you why... I've NEVER had to spend even one second medding back mana... If I'm not dead, I'm ready to go. Even being low on hps doesn't matter really. You are trained by repeated deaths not to taunt monsters; so I rarely ever get hit in combat, unless I'm LOADING... please waiting my way to bind point. Then I get all my hps back... so NO waiting ever. You are always good to go!

Do bards need a fix or two... yes. The your song stops abruptly messages I've been getting lately that leaves me showing no song playing, but still getting the messages for a song, they are annoying. You basically have to zone, camp, die, or get bashed to change a song. If you can't twist, you are useless. If you can't stop a song for the pull, you are dead. This is a bad bug.

My forage skill is a waste. The cap makes it useless to bother with, I just buy milk and muffins. Its not worth the trouble.

My safe fall is nice. Its just the right level to keep me alive on most terrain at bard boot speeds... while slowly pounding my group to death that is following me. A nice feeling, if a bit self centered.

Tracking is good. Its skill capped at the perfect place. I've seen rangers who wished to have my skill cap. Why? The things on the screen are all near me. heh. I never wander to the wrong end of the zone past 3 simular monsters to get to the one I'm tracking. If I don't see it, its too far away to bother with.

Instill doubt? I swish about, look cool and scare a single monster once in awhile. Its almost usefull, in those situations where you are worried about the AOE aspect of your fear song. Most places however, the fear song is a better more sure thing. It NEVER gets used in a dungeon though, toooooo risky.

Dual wield... A nice touch. However, double attack would have been WAY easier to deal with. Why? they have about the same general effect on damage dealt to monsters. More or less... But with dual wield I'm forced to swap out 2 weapons for my instrument EVERY time I change. Not very smart really, I wonder why I did it that way?

So what would I like to see? Simple... bards need to have a "play" skill. When used, this button should stay down until released, and automatically cycle through the top 2... or 3... or 4 songs in the memorized song list. Automatically twisting for you. This would make all connection speeds equally as good. Ok, that takes a host side change as well as a client side one, so its likely not to happen. Well, if you make it client side only it won't help connection speed issues, but it will save me about 10,000 clicks an evening. Is that all that bad? Yes, I've heard all the... twisting is a skill remarks. Yes, I can twist 3 songs consistantly, and 4 on a good day with only a few drops. Am I happy I can? Yep. Do I want to make all those UNSKILLED bards just as good as I am? Yes I do, if it will keep me from the 10,000 clicks of torture I go through every night.

In closing... so this won't seem a total rant. I like my bard. Nerf him all you want,(I suggest that mana song not stack with clarity, that way I can play other songs too sometimes *hey its a joke! dont flame me for that :0*) I'll keep playing him and my friends will keep grouping with me. I like bards alot, but I do think there are things that can be done to improve the experience of being one...

[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010208...ty_timings.htm

Clarity Timings
From the Concert Hall Message Board-

Author Comment
gendal
Registered User
(8/29/00 2:48:07 pm)
Clarity 2, Cantana, and 32 time tests


Took a lvl 44 Druid named Millie, stripped her naked (don't get all excited, was a halfling) and used my bard Gendal, lvl 58 with Sonica, a lvl 59 enchanter to conduct these tests. The druid and bard where both played by me on two computers 3 feet from each other and i used a stopwatch to time the results.

I took the druid oom by casting till I couldn't cast a spell, then waiting standing up till I could cast it again. Soon as I finished casting I immediately sat down and started the timer simultaneously. This led to some very repeatable results. Phantom mana was next to non existent, but checked for via a telescope.

Results this time where a lot more in line with what you would expect.


nothing
5.41.30
5.40.57
5.40.69

cantana
3.34.36
3.35.21
3.34.95

32
4.02.67
4.05.69
4.05.96

32 + cantana
3.04.76
3.04.69
2.58.79

c2
3.34.27
3.34.52
3.34.63

c2 + cantana
2.39.60
2.40.18
2.32.19

c2 + 32
2.50.59
2.52.49
2.53.07

c2 + 32 + cantana
2.20.63
2.16.55
2.17.19

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https://web.archive.org/web/20010208...052139-10.html

Darkmask
Station Member posted 01-27-2001 01:49 PM
It was said that clarity is a unqiue skill, as in mana regeneration, it is not.
Enchanters- Clarity and Clarity 2

Necros-They have their own form of clarity which gives them more mana then clarity could

Shamans-Cannablize 1,2,3

Someone said Druids tree form comes with a build in clarity, never known this to be true, but lets say, their mask of the hunter or howler, one of the wolf forms has a built in mana regen.

Wizards-Mana Skin and Harvest, Epic Weapon

Mages-Mod Rods

Bards-Mana Song, and wont allow you to cast clarity while it is playing

So you want to tell me how enchanters affect mana regen better then anyone else?

Only one class I know that can deal with mana better the enchanters, that is necros who can eat their HPs, create mana, dump it do a Cleric, who heals them for less mana then they just got dumped for, so in effect, you have free mana.

I never understood why Necros have the ability to channel magic into others and enchanters cannot, we can apparently increase mana pools and mana regen, but we cannot give anyone else some mana.

Clerics can give HPS

Enchanters should be able to give MANA

Necros should be able to do both but at high costs.

Added with the insane magic resitance you have placed on everything to avoid other classes from kiting things, we have to sit down, we might as well be able to dump mana to clerics who heal the tanks and rogues, the only three classes it seems to be neccesary for vellious.

Making any class not neccesary for an encounter unbalances the game, all classes should be neccesary and that is the challenge of picking who you go with.

Not, okay in Vellious will have three tanks, two rogues and a cleric, you enchanter and shaman come here and buff us and then sit down and look pretty until we need you.