Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Note that Loramin can cap his stamina out any time he likes. He reaches 250 by using a single cheap stat potion and hits cap if he exchanges his goblin ear for stat ear and star of eyes, no other changes needed. He might not care enough to bother doing that, but the option's always present. Without knowing his equipment--can he increase/cap his mana just as easily if he so chooses?

I'm generally somewhere in the middle on this one, but I think Loramin's "95%" stat could use a disclaimer: That's mainly true of the people who level up a character then more or less retire it shortly after hitting level cap. That applies to a lot of players, to be sure. Some players continue heavily playing characters past that point, for whom the consideration changes. As always, a player should build a character for his own needs rather than trying to follow a one-size-fits-all guide. Suggestions such as in this thread are by necessity of a general nature only and can't always encompass all circumstances.

Danth

Agreed. I would say though that Shamans probably have a higher rate of being played once they hit 60, because Torpor is a game changer. I would be surprised if a lot of players spend around 100k on spells that cannot be resold and then just stop playing. This is another problem I have with his "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox, because Shamans specifically play significantly different with Torpor. This should extend the life at which someone plays their character. It certainly did for me. If someone has stats that show otherwise I would be quite surprised.

Your logic applies better to characters that can have their gear swapped out at any time. Like if you have a floating Fungi Tunic, Cloak of Flames, etc. to deck out an alt. It's much easier to level them and stop, because you can just move that gear onto whatever new class fits your fancy. With casters it's a bit harder to do that due to how much plat you need to sink into spells. Unless you are someone who can just make money hand-over-fist of course[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Note that Loramin can cap his stamina out any time he likes. He reaches 250 by using a single cheap stat potion and hits cap if he exchanges his goblin ear for stat ear and star of eyes, no other changes needed. He might not care enough to bother doing that, but the option's always present. Without knowing his equipment--can he increase/cap his mana just as easily if he so chooses?

Serious question (for your wife?): what percentage of the fights does she use potions in? I ask because I use them 0% of the time [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To me the minor benefit of a few extra starting HP is outweighed by the hassle/cost of having to make the potion. But I'd be curious to hear roughly how often that value outweighs the hassle/cost for someone else.

But back on topic, whatever % that is, it's that % times whatever small % of a Shaman's entire life they have just enough Stamina to hit the cap with a potion, but not without it ... resulting in an even smaller percentage.

So, I don't see my central point much regardless of the percentage ... but I'm still curious to hear it?

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm generally somewhere in the middle on this one, but I think Loramin's "95%" stat could use a disclaimer: That's mainly true of the people who level up a character then more or less retire it shortly after hitting level cap. That applies to a lot of players, to be sure. Some players continue heavily playing characters past that point, for whom the consideration changes. As always, a player should build a character for his own needs rather than trying to follow a one-size-fits-all guide. Suggestions such as in this thread are by necessity of a general nature only and can't always encompass all circumstances.

Danth

I'm just as in agreement about "not all Shaman" as I was on page 3, when I wrote (in response to you):

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, you're absolutely right: it really matters what you're planning to do with your Shaman, and it's not one size fits all, or even one size fits all non-raiders.

Similarly "not all Shaman" retire after they fill every slot with BiS gear ... but I think most do.

But first, let's forget about "at 60, with Torpor, will full BiS": if we could study the P99 database, I'm willing to bet that less than half of all Shaman even make it to 60. Such players may not post in forums like us crazy people, but they certainly exist.

Then, out of those that do make it, I'd guess a similar good chunk will never acquire the gear to hit the Stamina cap ... ever. Out of whatever % is left, I think it's safe to say that most of those people like acquiring gear in EQ."

But by the very definition, when all your gear is "best in slot", there is nothing left to acquire. Thus, I truly don't think it's a stretch to think most will quit. Hell, I truly think most of what's left will quit well before every last slot is filled with BiS.

And again, when talking about Shaman at large, I think it's safe to say that most will either never hit the Stamina cap, or if they do will hit it for only a small % of their total playtime.

[Danth]

Can't tell you how often she uses it, that's her not me and she doesn't post here. I'd venture not a lot because if we're on, we're duo'ing and she's not getting hit so what does she need max HP for? It's reflective of the difference between a duo'er vs. a solo'er.

If you aren't capping stamina you aren't likely capping mana either so we're back to what's more useful, a bit of health or a bit of mana. That discussion could last forever, as this thread attests! I would venture to suggest that the correct choice, at an individual level, is what gives a player more confidence because in truth the limiting factor in a given shaman's capability is often what he's willing to try.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But first, let's forget about "at 60, with Torpor, will full BiS": if we could study the P99 database, I'm willing to bet that less than half of all Shaman even make it to 60. Such players may not post in forums like us crazy people, but they certainly exist.

Then, out of those that do make it, I'd guess a similar good chunk will never acquire the gear to hit the Stamina cap ... ever. Out of whatever % is left, I think it's safe to say that most of those people like acquiring gear in EQ."

But by the very definition, when all your gear is "best in slot", there is nothing left to acquire. Thus, I truly don't think it's a stretch to think most will quit. Hell, I truly think most of what's left will quit well before every last slot is filled with BiS.

And again, when talking about Shaman at large, I think it's safe to say that most will either never hit the Stamina cap, or if they do will hit it for only a small % of their total playtime.

Why are you jumping to Shamans with BiS gear? That has never been a part of the discussion, unless you are finally pulling something out of your "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox.

I have already shown multiple times you can cap your STA before level 60, without raid gear, and with desirable gear.

I am astounded by the fact that you can look at actual applications of gear on a Shaman and just turn a blind eye, while failing to provide any counter evidence for your claims.

You are factually incorrect when you claim that people will not cap STA until they are at the point at which they quit. You have literally 0 evidence for this, so please stop saying it. You do NOT NEED BiS gear (or even raid gear) to cap STA as a Shaman, even as a Barbarian.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why are you jumping to Shamans with BiS gear? That has never been a part of the discussion, unless you are finally pulling something out of your "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox.

That's exactly where; you're really bad at following (ie. reading) conversations [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The context was that we were talking about how long a Shaman would play, and I was making the point that once you get full BiS gear you (by definition) have nothing left to acquire. And once you have nothing left to acquire, most people won't play that character.

So, if you're talking about when a Shaman stops playing, it makes sense to "jump to" (again, not really a jump if you'd read the conversation) BiS gear.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have already shown multiple times you can cap your STA before level 60, without raid gear, and with desirable gear.

Yes you can, as you keep repeating. But you keep ignoring my points that A) most won't, and B) even if you do get cap-hitting gear pre-Torpor, you're almost certainly going to want to sell it to buy Torpor. Ultimately, it all still fits what I've been saying for 20+ pages: for most of their life, a Shaman won't have stat-capped gear.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are factually incorrect when you claim that people will not cap STA until they are at the point at which they quit. You have literally 0 evidence for this, so please stop saying it. You do NOT NEED BiS gear (or even raid gear) to cap STA as a Shaman, even as a Barbarian.

Now you're putting words in my mouth: I never claimed "people will not cap STA until they are at the point at which they quit". I've very consistently said that they won't cap any stat for 95+% of their career. Only you could get through 28 pages of conversation and not get the point I've repeated a dozen times about "95+%"

Look, it's clear you don't want to read, or communicate with people like a human being, you just want to mindlessly repeat your same points over and over like an automaton. It's exhausting, and I'm not going to keep participating.

So you have two choices: either make a claim that directly counters the points I've spent over 20 pages detailing ... again, as I said before, something like:

Originally Posted by Loramin

I believe realistic/actual Shaman below 60 will hit the stat cap because ____
I believe Mana will save a Shaman's life before 60 more than HP will because ____
I believe that once a Shaman has gotten 60, and Torpor, and good enough gear to max stats, they will spend more than 5% of their total playtime playing that character because _____

Or else have fun talking to yourself in this thread. I'm not going to answer anymore cherry-picked quotes taken out of context, or the same mindless repetition posts over and over.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Can't tell you how often she uses it, that's her not me and she doesn't post here. I'd venture not a lot because if we're on, we're duo'ing and she's not getting hit so what does she need max HP for? It's reflective of the difference between a duo'er vs. a solo'er.

One more "not all Shaman" point: not all Shaman solo [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] And we could probably have a whole other 20+ page thread just about which stat a duoer would benefit more from (my gut says Wisdom, but I have little experience to back that up).

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you aren't capping stamina you aren't likely capping mana either so we're back to what's more useful, a bit of health or a bit of mana. That discussion could last forever, as this thread attests! I would venture to suggest that the correct choice, at an individual level, is what gives a player more confidence because in truth the limiting factor in a given shaman's capability is often what he's willing to try.

100% agree.

[Jibartik]

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[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's exactly where; you're really bad at following (ie. reading) conversations [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The context was that we were talking about how long a Shaman would play, and I was making the point that once you get full BiS gear you (by definition) have nothing left to acquire. And once you have nothing left to acquire, most people won't play that character.

So, if you're talking about when a Shaman stops playing, it makes sense to "jump to" (again, not really a jump if you'd read the conversation) BiS gear.



Yes you can, as you keep repeating. But you keep ignoring my points that A) most won't, and B) even if you do get cap-hitting gear pre-Torpor, you're almost certainly going to want to sell it to buy Torpor. Ultimately, it all still fits what I've been saying for 20+ pages: for most of their life, a Shaman won't have stat-capped gear.



Now you're putting words in my mouth: I never claimed "people will not cap STA until they are at the point at which they quit". I've very consistently said that they won't cap any stat for 95+% of their career. Only you could get through 28 pages of conversation and not get the point I've repeated a dozen times about "95+%"

Look, it's clear you don't want to read, or communicate with people like a human being, you just want to mindlessly repeat your same points over and over like an automaton. It's exhausting, and I'm not going to keep participating.

So you have two choices: either make a claim that directly counters the points I've spent over 20 pages detailing ... again, as I said before, something like:



Or else have fun talking to yourself in this thread. I'm not going to answer anymore cherry-picked quotes taken out of context, or the same mindless repetition posts over and over.

Again, none of this is true, and has been disproven in this thread multiple times. I am not ignoring your points, you just aren't defining your "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox. Saying "I am right and you are wrong" isn't an argument, even if you try to disguise it as "95% of a Shaman's life". I am not sure what world you live in where the last 5% of your playtime isn't nearly the point at which you quit hehe. The problem isn't my communication skills. The problem is you have a real issue with admitting you are wrong, which is why you cling to the "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox. It can't be disproven, so you feel safe with it. If I have been mistaken about this, please define your "95% of a Shaman's life" blackbox so we can have a discussion about it. I myself capped my STA well before 95% of my life. It was closer to 50%. You can't even tell us where you got this statistic lol.

Reposting the relevant information that isn't based on a blackbox, to save users some time:

1. WIS is harder to cap during the Velious era than STA generally speaking. This is WITHOUT RAID GEAR. Usually the best starting stat is the primary stat that is hardest to cap, because a capped stat isn't helping you. This means 25 WIS / 5 STA is generally the better way to go (or 25 WIS / 5 AGI for Ogres). If you don't believe me, you can create Magelos with various gear and see how the stats shake out. Remember that you also get a +50 STA buff, but only a +10 WIS buff that is an illusion, which means it falls off more often due to zoning. You can also drink a +STA potion that you can craft yourself.

2. The only reason why you would want to put 25 into STA instead is if you are planning out your gear/strategies ahead of time, and want to save a buff slot in the long run. This is because if you can cap STA without needing Riotous Health / Primal Essence, you end up freeing up a buff slot, because you do not need to cast Riotous Health on yourself. Freeing up a buff slot can be difficult to do, so this can be more important than just raw stats.

3. Starting stats will NOT really help you during the leveling process, because stats scale by level. You will need to be around level 40 before you start noticing a difference. Generally speaking if you are concerned about starting stats, you are looking towards the end game, where those points end up giving you the most returns.

4. 25 STA gives you 75HP at level 60. It gives you something like 30 HP at level 30. Neither 75HP nor 30HP will save your life a significant amount of times. If this wasn't true, everybody would be running two HP earrings instead of a stat earring + Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring. They would be getting https://wiki.project1999.com/Star_of_Eyes instead. Generally speaking Shamans do not do this, because the stat penalty from putting on Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is insignificant. Having another inventory slot open for a bag is better, and Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring is easier to use because it does not require a target. If losing 35 HP or more on your earring doesn't change how often you die, why do you think the 25 STA will make a difference? Having a Hammered Golden Hoop instead of the Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring would give you that 75HP plus 8 more STA, and yet people wear Shrunken Goblin Skull Earring instead.

5. Shamans can in fact run out of mana before dying, which is why the +25 WIS can give you a small chance to survive a bad encounter. Similar to the +25 STA, this chance is very small. The usual culprit for this both Pre-Torpor and Post-Torpor are strings of resists and/or root breaks. Shaman spells are expensive, which means fizzling, resists, and root breaks can really add up quick if you are not careful. Here is a video of me fighting Bravatar: https://youtu.be/igpbLuNe0ls?t=1244 . As you can see at that timestamp, I am low on both HP and Mana. If he had given me one or two more unlucky resists, I would be completely out of Mana. If I was at 2% mana and 40% health, I would probably gate for safety because a double attack from Bravatar would get me very close to dying. Remember, this is me fighting Bravatar in mid-tier raid gear, so a lesser geared Shaman would be even lower on Mana.

[Toxigen]

12 days and 28 pages later these same spergs are going at an utterly meaningless debate

lmao

[Cen]

The mana you get per wisdom point is obviously much higher, and mana capacitance helps on a between pulls basis. I will say that you likely won't go wrong with any allocation involving wisdom and stamina to a high degree.

As a shaman without outside help, it's easier to have more stats close to max self buffed with more points toward wisdom, I feel. After all, can't buff wisdom!