Project 1999

Go Back   Project 1999 > Class Discussions > Casters

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #91  
Old 06-24-2022, 11:59 AM
loramin loramin is offline
Planar Protector

loramin's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,340
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by commongood [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Fair. Reason I was asking was that red vs blue would have a pretty significant impact as to the frequency of casual charming in exp groups etc. I played a chanter on Tallon Zek from 2000 2006 and I don't remember charming at all for exp during my initial Kunark and Velious play time. However that was also very much to do with the risks of getting ganked by pvp'ers. It felt like in many scenarios it was just completely untennable.

Biggest memory I have of charming-soloing was much later (in PoP) where I would solo in Bastion of Thunder and Plane of Valor for exp and profits.

Though my memory is extremely hazy - which I suspect is the caze for many people replying to threads here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
My central argument in this fight has always been "what does everyone remember from classic ('99-'01)?" And again, if you ask anyone except a P99 Enchanter player, they'll tell you: Enchanters were a grouping class (even though there were plenty of soloing classes, like Necros or Druids; it's not like everyone in classic grouped exclusively or anything).

But also we have more objective sources than just people's memories. You can find Enchanter guides on Caster's Realm archives, Enchanter discussions on Allakhazam archives, and so on. And they'll say the same thing: charm soloing was a thing in classic! It was also super risky and dangerous ... and most preferred groups because that was the safer/faster-in-the-long-run way to get XP.

I'm not trying to get charm soloing removed from P99 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] Heck, I plan to play an Enchanter on Green 2.0.

I just want it to be classically hard like it should be. Smarter people than me have said the reason is that our resist rates are off, but I don't know if that's the issue or not: all I know is our Enchanters aren't classic.
__________________

Loramin Frostseer, Oracle of the Tribunal <Anonymous> and Fan of the "Where To Go For XP/For Treasure?" Guides
Anyone can improve the wiki! If you are new to the Blue server, you can improve the wiki to earn a "welcome package" of up to 2k+ platinum! Message me for details.
Reply With Quote
  #92  
Old 06-24-2022, 12:57 PM
-Catherin- -Catherin- is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,495
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by commongood [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Fair. Reason I was asking was that red vs blue would have a pretty significant impact as to the frequency of casual charming in exp groups etc. I played a chanter on Tallon Zek from 2000 2006 and I don't remember charming at all for exp during my initial Kunark and Velious play time. However that was also very much to do with the risks of getting ganked by pvp'ers. It felt like in many scenarios it was just completely untennable.

Biggest memory I have of charming-soloing was much later (in PoP) where I would solo in Bastion of Thunder and Plane of Valor for exp and profits.

Though my memory is extremely hazy - which I suspect is the caze for many people replying to threads here [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I started using charm a lot more during PoP as well. charm never recieved any kind of buffs from vanilla to this period (unless you counted dire charm, but dire charm was close to useless imo, and not what this conversation is about anyways). I would duo things like Wuoshi with a Druid partner with their CH. (Giants were immune to fear so they could actually take down Wuoshi).

The assumptions that people with only P99 enchanter experience have these opinions is wrong. Enchanter was my main on live. While i did plenty of the group/animation role as mentioned, I also did plenty of the charming too.

Another one i had fun with was charming those frogs in the plane of storms. I think that was the name? the one outside bastion of thunder. You could use those frogs to take down the giants that dropped the pieces for the key quest to enter that bastion, and I made a TON of plat doing that. Getting entry that way did not count as one of the flags to access the higher planes, but a lot of people didnt care about that.

Again though, this is us just throwing around our "experiences" so its not going to change a thing. id personlly welcome the change though. It would actually make charming easier for the content that really counts.
Last edited by -Catherin-; 06-24-2022 at 01:06 PM..
Reply With Quote
  #93  
Old 06-24-2022, 01:11 PM
-Catherin- -Catherin- is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,495
Default

Just to pre-emptively respond to what I know is coming. I know these examples are out of era. but the point is that charm still functioned roughly the same as it always had.
Reply With Quote
  #94  
Old 06-24-2022, 02:05 PM
commongood commongood is offline
Fire Giant


Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 759
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
My central argument in this fight has always been "what does everyone remember from classic ('99-'01)?" And again, if you ask anyone except a P99 Enchanter player, they'll tell you: Enchanters were a grouping class.

That’s a pretty big leap. I’m not a fan of arguments like “ask anyone, they’ll all confirm my point of view”.

I’m not saying I feel certain one way or another. I’m sure, if compelling evidence is found that things need changing it will happen eventually.
Reply With Quote
  #95  
Old 06-24-2022, 04:37 PM
loramin loramin is offline
Planar Protector

loramin's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,340
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by commongood [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
That’s a pretty big leap. I’m not a fan of arguments like “ask anyone, they’ll all confirm my point of view”.
Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
But also we have more objective sources than just people's memories. You can find Enchanter guides on Caster's Realm archives, Enchanter discussions on Allakhazam archives, and so on. And they'll say the same thing: charm soloing was a thing in classic! It was also super risky and dangerous ... and most preferred groups because that was the safer/faster-in-the-long-run way to get XP.
__________________

Loramin Frostseer, Oracle of the Tribunal <Anonymous> and Fan of the "Where To Go For XP/For Treasure?" Guides
Anyone can improve the wiki! If you are new to the Blue server, you can improve the wiki to earn a "welcome package" of up to 2k+ platinum! Message me for details.
Reply With Quote
  #96  
Old 06-24-2022, 07:48 PM
DMN DMN is offline
Planar Protector

DMN's Avatar

Join Date: May 2016
Location: My own special hell
Posts: 3,368
Default

if you want you have the real old school solo enchanter exprerience the early days, follow my handy guide;


1. You don't use tash, ever. cause it has high resist rates and you were usually better off using something else instead due to the opportuity cost of a free opening spel-- same reason even today many shamans will cast slow before they bother land a mal spell.

2. You use vpn and make sure it's a shitty one that gives you 300ish ms ping with frequent spikes into 400-500, and complety disconests your internet at least once an hour. or pay someone to sit next to you and randomly do the same.

3. you have to always stare at the spellbook when you mediate.

4. you have to set up your visual/windows so you can't see the charm break message since it didn't exist -- which is really fun when paired with 3 above.

5. No qcd clickie. these didnt catch on in any significant manner until near a year into vanilla and even then is wasn't common outside of shamans cannabalizing.

6. No clarity spells. granted this only lasted for a couple moths,but you wanna be OG don't ya?


Let us know how it all works out for ya.
Reply With Quote
  #97  
Old 06-24-2022, 08:26 PM
loramin loramin is offline
Planar Protector

loramin's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,340
Default

I didn't know about the clarity thing, but as for stuff like having a crappy connection and staring at the spellbook ... magicians, necros and druids all faced those same challenges, and yet they were all known for being solo classes (who still grouped sometimes of course).

Enchanters weren't: they were a majority grouping class, and in groups they were not charming because it was too risky. Here it's so safe Enchanters get yelled at if they don't charm a pet ... if you can find one who isn't soloing to group with [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I'm not saying Enchanter solo charming didn't happen, or shouldn't exist here: I'm just saying the numbers (as smarter people than me have suggested, the channeling numbers for instance) somehow need tweaking to make charming at least bit riskier again.
__________________

Loramin Frostseer, Oracle of the Tribunal <Anonymous> and Fan of the "Where To Go For XP/For Treasure?" Guides
Anyone can improve the wiki! If you are new to the Blue server, you can improve the wiki to earn a "welcome package" of up to 2k+ platinum! Message me for details.
Reply With Quote
  #98  
Old 06-24-2022, 10:21 PM
DMN DMN is offline
Planar Protector

DMN's Avatar

Join Date: May 2016
Location: My own special hell
Posts: 3,368
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I didn't know about the clarity thing, but as for stuff like having a crappy connection and staring at the spellbook ... magicians, necros and druids all faced those same challenges, and yet they were all known for being solo classes (who still grouped sometimes of course).
it's irrelevant to necros and mages, since the way they generally solo'd gave them a solid cushion in the case of a lag spike or even disconnect. You see, people actually played anticipationg the fact they would get massive lag spikes or even disconnects when they were soloing. It was a real thing you had to deal with or -- or delevel. Also a big part of the reason enchanter often opted to not solo charm even if they had the capabilities to do so.

Druids are a special case, in that if they were trying to charm or quad kite, they would indeed find themsleves in the same situtation as enchanters -- get a lag spike/disconnect and enjoy losing 8+ hours of experience loss. No level 49+ cleric was going to randomly trundle by and wipe your ass with exp rez. And thats why despite all the bullshit claims of druids quad kiting it was almost never done regularly for exp because the risk benefit ratio was complete dogshit for 95% of players. A similar throughline is found with the fairytale of "swarm kiting" bards in vanilla . It's just a fantasy that never happened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Enchanters weren't: they were a majority grouping class, and in groups they were not charming because it was too risky. Here it's so safe Enchanters get yelled at if they don't charm a pet ... if you can find one who isn't soloing to group with [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters still charmed in groups but it was not done with any regularity. usually charming was done to try to break spawn in a difficult camp. But even if an enchanter was capable and wanted to keep a charm pet they would be scolded by the party into getting rid of it, because charm pets "Steal exp" and can make enemy corspes go "poof". I never saw any of that happen but because some idiot on the forums claimed it happens everyone believed it. there was also the reality that simply keeping a charm meant you were steaing a spawn spot for the group to gain more exp, and no one wanted that -- including the enchanter. lower guk with 200+ people in it ws not an oddity on fennin ro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Again, I'm not saying Enchanter solo charming didn't happen, or shouldn't exist here: I'm just saying the numbers (as smarter people than me have suggested, the channeling numbers for instance) somehow need tweaking to make charming at least bit riskier again.
Fucking with channeling will just make enchanters stronger. Color flux is a thing -- a thing only enchanters have access to.
Reply With Quote
  #99  
Old 06-25-2022, 10:32 AM
loramin loramin is offline
Planar Protector

loramin's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,340
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMN [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Enchanters still charmed in groups but it was not done with any regularity. usually charming was done to try to break spawn in a difficult camp. But even if an enchanter was capable and wanted to keep a charm pet they would be scolded by the party into getting rid of it, because charm pets "Steal exp" and can make enemy corspes go "poof". I never saw any of that happen but because some idiot on the forums claimed it happens everyone believed it. there was also the reality that simply keeping a charm meant you were steaing a spawn spot for the group to gain more exp, and no one wanted that -- including the enchanter. lower guk with 200+ people in it ws not an oddity on fennin ro.
So you agree: in classic Enchanters didn't charm regularly, here's it's expected. And don't try to explain it with nonsense rumours: I've never once heard of charm pets poofing corpses and such, and neither did 90% of the servers players I'm sure.

There was lots of misinformation in classic, but it was dispersed. A comment on Allakhazam might say one thing, while one on Caster's Realm might say another, while a person in-game might tell you a third thing. People believed all sorts of different stupid things, and I'm sure someone (besides you) believed the "poof" thing ... but I never once heard anything about charm pets making corpses poof, nor have I seen any mention to it in any of the hundreds of guides/comments I've read trying to find proof that Enchanters aren't classic here ... so I highly doubt that's the reason groups didn't charm.

Again, the reason was that it was harder and more dangerous. It's probably a mix of hard-to-nail-down-exactly mechanics here being not quite classic, and yes also some of it also has to do with Internet connections being flaky. But ...

A) tons of people had good connections (eg. the bulk of the top guild on Bristlebane, Club Fu, used a T1 ... I know because we all played at a shared gaming center); connections can't explain everything, and ...

B) If the change in connection quality changes one class so much ... and again, every other class here fundamentally plays the way it did in classic: Enchanters are the only class played fundamentally differently on P99 (Druids and Necros still primarily solo here, Warriors and Clerics still primarily group, etc.)... and the goal of this place is to make things classic ... maybe we should tweak the one class that isn't classic to be more classic, regardless of the origin of the unclassicness.
__________________

Loramin Frostseer, Oracle of the Tribunal <Anonymous> and Fan of the "Where To Go For XP/For Treasure?" Guides
Anyone can improve the wiki! If you are new to the Blue server, you can improve the wiki to earn a "welcome package" of up to 2k+ platinum! Message me for details.
Last edited by loramin; 06-25-2022 at 10:35 AM..
Reply With Quote
  #100  
Old 06-25-2022, 12:19 PM
commongood commongood is offline
Fire Giant


Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 759
Default

There either is or isn’t compelling evidence that the way the devs on p99 have designed and programmed the enchanter class for the past decade is wrong. If there is, I’m sure that will be the reason it gets changed. Not because people in threads like these argue “ask anyone they will all say the same thing” or “everyone who played on live remembers that…”
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:33 AM.


Everquest is a registered trademark of Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Project 1999 is not associated or affiliated in any way with Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.