Game Mechanics: Warrior aggro procs are probably wrong

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lets look at primary weapons and divide their melee hate per swing by their delay:

Feverblade: 11+11 = 22/20 = 1.11
Jade Mace: 9+11 = 20/18 = 1.11
Howling Cutlass: 10+11 = 21/19 = 1.10
Lamentation: 9+11 = 20/19 = 1.05
Epic: 14+11 = 25/24 = 1.05
Sarnak Warhammer: 9+11/20 = 1.00

So from a melee hate perspective the epic is quite mediocre. That is what the post is complaining about. Couple that with the fact that the blue sword doesn't have an aggro proc, and a warrior using the epic for group tanking is going to be way behind a warrior using two proccing VP weapons. Even for raiding aggro was more important without the midnight mallet.

Meanwhile on P1999, we have had a ton of overpowered bosses that needed insane HP (Bee, quadding Hoshkar, etc) and mallet charges to make aggro irrelevant. So the stats on the epic meant more than pure hate/sec. And even here I think the blue epic is still worthless, which is why I'm trying to get a Sword of the Shissar. As a warrior you simply cannot afford to give up 1/3 of your aggro procs. It's just not a good idea.

And finally, I'm guessing that in Kunark they weren't quite up to speed on parsing and realizing just how good a -40ATK debuff should be. As Maurice told me earlier, Verant introduced ATK debuffs in Luclin, and they were so good that they were never upgraded over something like 10 years.

Also Arteker don't worry about your english. Take Lanzellot as your model!

u guys forgot aswell one factor of agro was a solid mele dps, was main reason monks could tank quite well.and by tank i mean having a solid agro.

debuffs where hugue agro wich in this server doesnt work same level as it did live.

u gotta chek how powerfull agro was the tiny ranger spell called flamelick wich combine with a snare was a very very very solid agro , here that spell isnt as good as was live because debuffs such cripple dont generate same agro.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

And finally, I'm guessing that in Kunark they weren't quite up to speed on parsing and realizing just how good a -40ATK debuff should be. As Maurice told me earlier, Verant introduced ATK debuffs in Luclin, and they were so good that they were never upgraded over something like 10 years.

I missed the druid ATK debuff which actually did receive upgrades. I know the SK one didn't receive an upgrade despite us asking for it every expansion.

ATK Debuffs function very much like pre-cap AC. Again with the 'I don't know the mechanics here', but until mid-Velious or so AC was hardcapped on live. So, ATK debuffs can be a huge fucking deal.

Refer to this page on Atk Debuffs http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...t=13652&page=8

Err, that's 18.6% damage reduced by full druid [ATK] debuffs.

It'd take more than thousands of AC to replicate that kind of effect. It'd probably take thousands of AC just to replicate half of that effect.

Even in my TM parses, -100 attack (not even 190, just 100) dropped the overall dps of the mob by 9% during the duration of the parse (500 ihts, 13 minutes).

Keep in mind this is -255 ATK on mobs with a lot more ATK than Kunark mobs. -40 ATK on Kunark/Velious mobs is very large.

Quoting the AC Hardcap (different from above link on ATK debuffs)

Kavhok
EQ Designer
Posts: 14

Your AC cap was lowered. That was absolutely and unequivocally a nerf. I didn't mean in any way to imply otherwise.

Let me give a more full explanation of what happened, though. Here's how the AC formula used to work before the patch immediately preceding PoP:

The AC from your items was added up, but the value used for it was hard capped based on your level. This was the same for all classes. Once you had 289 raw AC from items (or 385 as a cloth class, since they get less effect from item AC), that was it. More AC from items wouldn't do anything.

After this, it added your class bonuses (including the monk bonus, which is equivalent to your level + 5 in raw item AC), defense skill bonus, agility bonus, and the AC from spell buffs.

Total AC at this point was capped again, this time based on class. In the Kunark-era code, this was a hard cap, but sometime during Velious it was changed to a soft cap for melee classes only. The return was fairly small, though.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or do you believe that this weapon is the lone example in the history of the game of a proc with an AC debuff that wasn't large aggro?

No, I agree that 100dd and -11ac should be good aggro.

I just don't get that people complained about the weapon not being good -- enough that it was eventually (or so it appears) change to just a simple +500hate 100dd.

Not trying to disagree with anyone here, just raising questions.

I just don't get the time line of the events and what people felt was so bad about it compared to other things.

Edit: The way I'm seeing it is the epic originally had less HP, 100dd, an AC and ATK debuff. From what we know about aggro right now -- the sheer amount of hate generated shouldn't be substantially different in any direction -- but the -40ATK will be pretty damn nice.

Old warriors, for some reason, complained about this until it was fixed to 500hate and 100dd.

What was bad about the original weapon, and what was better about the new weapon?

Perhaps the debuff portion can be resisted, giving no +aggro? Just throwing ideas out.

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, I agree that 100dd and -11ac should be good aggro.

I just don't get that people complained about the weapon not being good -- enough that it was eventually (or so it appears) change to just a simple +500hate 100dd.

Not trying to disagree with anyone here, just raising questions.

I just don't get the time line of the events and what people felt was so bad about it compared to other things.

the answer to hit lies in veridrix short sword and veldrak shorts swords and shishar swords.

like it happened in velious dd+stun mechanic ranked way better for agro purpose ,infact the great deal with such agro was the fact a stun wich didint land or worked would even generate more agro than one wich landed.


to put a example , when paladins got their small fast cast stuns wich got resisted by low lvl mobs it was a a massive and massive agro tool wich screwed out warriors big time.im talking about cease and desist low lvl stun

it was a hugue debate in test server and main reason pure agro procs where added and later refined.

when it wasnt even enough to give a boost to wars agro over paladin stuns and sks terror and torrent line they launched the big nerf in stun agro.

wich for land for full agro needed to land, was main reason anger procs made enragin blow obsolete since the stun component+ agro mod would work always unlike most paladins stuns.

[Splorf22]

I'm pretty sure I answered precisely that question: that the melee hate of the epic is quite medicore, that they cared more about the hate than the stats, and that they probably didn't realize (because they weren't parsing) how good -40ATK really was. Based on what Pasi quoted for the relatively low-atk mobs we are seeing it should be something like a 10% damage reduction.

The warrior epic would be so much better if both the swords were 12/20 and the blue one increased the proc rate of the mainhand by 50%. Together those changes increase the hate of the epic by 25% or so. Even a 13/20 epic isn't that outrageous; that would basically make the epic a willsapper clone.

[pasi]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, I agree that 100dd and -11ac should be good aggro.

I just don't get that people complained about the weapon not being good -- enough that it was eventually (or so it appears) change to just a simple +500hate 100dd.

Not trying to disagree with anyone here, just raising questions.

I just don't get the time line of the events and what people felt was so bad about it compared to other things.

Edit: The way I'm seeing it is the epic originally had less HP, 100dd, an AC and ATK debuff. From what we know about aggro right now -- the sheer amount of hate generated shouldn't be substantially different in any direction -- but the -40ATK will be pretty damn nice.

Old warriors, for some reason, complained about this until it was fixed to 500hate and 100dd.

What was bad about the original weapon, and what was better about the new weapon?

Perhaps the debuff portion can be resisted, giving no +aggro? Just throwing ideas out.

Honestly, you got me there. Maybe it was just what the epic could have been?

I'd probably go with that the classic-GoD EQ warrior community was probably the whiniest MMO community I've ever experienced (and I'm saying that as a contributor to TSW).

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm pretty sure I answered precisely that question: that the melee hate of the epic is quite medicore, that they cared more about the hate than the stats, and that they probably didn't realize (because they weren't parsing) how good -40ATK really was. Based on what Pasi quoted for the relatively low-atk mobs we are seeing it should be something like a 10% damage reduction.

The warrior epic would be so much better if both the swords were 12/20 and the blue one increased the proc rate of the mainhand by 50%. Together those changes increase the hate of the epic by 25% or so. Even a 13/20 epic isn't that outrageous; that would basically make the epic a willsapper clone.

wisch isnt a joke , willsapper himself was just ranked behind sods in terms of agro. was the holy grial of any non war with acces to st armory.

again if you need more info there was a old post about the paladin epic fiery defender being the crapiest of epics in ratio but having the best of all the agro procs from the tank class. was quoted in several forums even safehouse i think used to have .
paladin epic procs holy shock a dd+stun wich can easily snap agro at early figths , usualy isnt a problem when war have a solid agro hold in a mob but back in the day many and i mean lots of paladins died in raids because they proc the damm thing to much.

i had to buy a sword of rile with dkp because the damm epic killed me alot of times in raid when it would proc few fast times and mob would turn and killl me .

[Arteker]

Originally Posted by pasi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Honestly, you got me there. Maybe it was just what the epic could have been?

I'd probably go with that the classic-GoD EQ warrior community was probably the whiniest MMO community I've ever experienced (and I'm saying that as a contributor to TSW).

ah yes man i still remember the uproar when stupid guildy posted a video of quarm tanking paladin and innoruck ct in pot.


that silly fag of kreugen backed always furor in hybrid hate .

[pasi]

Originally Posted by Arteker [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

wisch isnt a joke , willsapper himself was just ranked behind sods in terms of agro. was the holy grial of any non war with acces to st armory.

Willsapper is great since it's 20 delay, and I plan on grabbing one to go with the Red Blade for my warrior, but I think some of the VP weapons will beat it out aggro-wise.

I posted this before, but cntrl +F energy sap here:
http://giline.versus.jp/shiden/stun_e.htm

Against Exterminator Wintloag (lv30), Energy Sap increases Hate by range 336.33 to 344.00.

Against Exterminator Wintloag (lv30), Energy Sap increases Hate by range 338.00 to 342.33.

Against Captain Stonefist (lv65), Energy Sap increases Hate by range 398.00 to 407.00.

[khanable]

Some talk about the debuff

http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...hp/t-3362.html
http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum...php/t-878.html