SK Race Choice

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Let’s get back to this discussion, it seems you have plenty of time to engage with others. Looking at my numbers I realized I wasn’t factoring in the APM of a gcd. Going back to my above example, 4 slows costs you 1000 mana. This is approximately 2 torpor’s and 6 cannis. That would be 14 actions((torpor+gcd+canni+gcd+canni+gcd+canni) * 2 = 14). This results in about 4 APM based on my earlier post. If you’re taking things somewhat easily which lets say is about 20 APM, that could potentially be a 20% APM reduction. To me that is significant. I don’t know what the average shaman APM is though as there’s likely too much variance there, but I do think there’s value added here. And as previously mentioned, regen also can make torpor 14% better. While you may not feel this is personally worth it, I do think people should realize these numbers and let them decide accordingly.

Such thing can vary based on the type of engagement you are using, but I think where you’ll see the true benefit of regen is in longer situations, which you’ve previously agreed with. Or if you ever find yourself in a bind and have to use FD ring, it can be really nice for that. I don’t think there’s enough evidence that supports neglecting it completely.

Ok I took a look at my logs.

1. 400 actions over 21 minutes (19 APM)
2. +15 Regen provided 2400 HP (2 Torpors). I didn't have Regrowth on for the first 5 minutes or so.
3. I cast 33 Torpors and 121 cannibalizes, which means 4 cannibalizes per Torpor.
4. (4 actions from 2x Torpor + 2x GCD) + (16 actions from 8x cannablizes + 8x GCD) = 20 actions saved potentially with Regrowth.
5. Theoretically I saved 1 APM in that fight from Regrowth, assuming I needed the two Torpors. I would have been at 20 APM without Regrowth + Fungi.

Using the data above and assuming I had Fungi + Regrowth on the entire fight:
1. 420 actions over 21 minutes (20 APM)
2. +30 Regen provided 6300 HP (5 Torpors)
3. 4 cannibalizes per Torpor
4. (10 actions from 5x Torpor + 5x GCD) + (40 actions from 20x cannablizes + 20x GCD) = 50 actions saved potentially with Regrowth + Fungi.
5. Theoretically goes down to 17.7 APM

Fungi + Regrowth saves roughly 2 APM. That is why I am saying it's not really noticeable for Shaman players. 20 APM really isn't bad to begin with. 18 APM isn't going to feel different over a fight this long. This is especially true since Shaman spells are long casts. You are looking at 5-10 seconds per 2 actions via waiting for spells to finish, so you can rest your hands. The cannibalize portions are going to be the heaviest, but you are still forced to wait 4 seconds per cannibalize, so that is 1 action per 2 seconds per cannibalize.

This is why Shamans prefer Vindi BP. Fungi Tunic alone is saving 1 APM, and Vindi BP provides more AC, HP, and Resistances. All of these stats are better for mitigating damage spikes, which are the biggest problems Shamans run into when soloing tough mobs. This is also why I typically don't bother using Regrowth. I don't notice the 1 APM it saves me. A lot of fights are also shorter than this, so you get less benefit from HP Regeneration. This is one of the longest fights I can think of.

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not scrubbing your 4500+ posts for historical tidbits. I cant recall you posting once with any humility, running one stupid test without an ounce of "I could be wrong here but..." baked in. Nobody here has poisoned my views against you, an ounce of levity in a DSM post would be refreshing though. Hell, it's a video game. You arent trying to convince people against eating Tide pods.

You simply missed those posts. You have admitted that you haven't read all of my posts, and you have been caught misquoting me multiple times. I didn't poison your views, you simply cherry picked some data, read a few things incorrectly, and came to a faulty conclusion. Please stop spreading misinformation about me.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don’t agree or disagree with the person. I disagree or agree with what is being said. Unfortunately you are wrong in these discussions more often than not. What brings you ire, however, is the stupid way you go about being wrong.

You troll a lot, even when you are incorrect on a point and refuse to admit it. You cannot deny this based on your post history. You have hundreds of posts of just gifs.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

regen isn’t worthwhile on a 60 shaman with torpor …

You are misquoting me here. Please stop creating strawmen.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

or when you say shaman dps in a high dps group with 2 charm pets is as good as a mage …

You can get to Mage level DPS when you root rot. Please stop creating strawmen.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

or when you say 4.3% more dps isn’t “worth it” compared to minuscule extra total mana pool on a casual sk….

So far my data on this topic is more conclusive than yours is. Please stop saying this is BS when you haven't done anything to show otherwise.

[Jimjam]

That is pretty consistent reasoning that for you ~5% change is not substantial (i.e the 4.3% dps improvement from +20 str).

How substantial improvement would you have wanted it to be to be worthwhile?

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is pretty consistent reasoning that for you ~5% change is not substantial (i.e the 4.3% dps improvement from +20 str).

How substantial improvement would you have wanted it to be to be worthwhile?

Oh snap!

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[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is pretty consistent reasoning that for you ~5% change is not substantial (i.e the 4.3% dps improvement from +20 str).

How substantial improvement would you have wanted it to be to be worthwhile?

That is an interesting observation. I never connected the multiple calculations I've done that end up being around 5% before. What a coincidence.

5% in general isn't a large boost in a game like Everquest, due to the numbers being so small. It's usually too small to get you to the next threshold, like getting more kills per hour while XPing.

Fungi Tunic is much better on a Troll SK than a Torpor Shaman. Fungi Tunic is providing more than a 50% boost to your HP Regen for the Troll SK.

You would have to provide a specific topic for me to see what percentage would get you to the next threshold of whatever we are discussing. It will almost certainly be bigger than 5% though.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is an interesting observation. I never connected the multiple calculations I've done that end up being around 5% before. What a coincidence.

5% in general isn't a large boost in a game like Everquest, due to the numbers being so small. It's usually too small to get you to the next threshold, like getting more kills per hour while XPing.

Fungi Tunic is much better on a Troll SK than a Torpor Shaman. Fungi Tunic is providing more than a 50% boost to your HP Regen for the Troll SK.

You would have to provide a specific topic for me to see what percentage would get you to the next threshold of whatever we are discussing. It will almost certainly be bigger than 5% though.

I'm not snipping your post down at all since I'd hate to be a cherry-picking troll, but do you know the general rule of thumb is that Avatar at level 60 adds about 10% to your dps?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not snipping your post down at all since I'd hate to be a cherry-picking troll, but do you know the general rule of thumb is that Avatar at level 60 adds about 10% to your dps?

Interesting, I never heard this 10% rule before.

Avatar is certainly going to provide a larger DPS boost than 20 STR via starting stats, if that is what you are referring to. You are getting 100 STR + 100 ATK. The DEX boost is increasing your procs too.

If people do have enough data to show that Avatar is a 10% DPS boost, that means the 20 STR via starting stats is only giving you a 2% DPS boost at best. Less since the ATK is also present on Avatar.

I don't have this Avatar data, so I am not going to say any of these numbers are accurate.

[Snaggles]

It’s a very common generalization. Assuming level 60, on high level raid targets. If it was less than 10% people wouldn’t be so thirsty for Primals. If it was much more than 10% people would scream at shamans for it even more than they do already.

It feels like a cheesy estimation but my best avatar disc on vindi was 110 dps and I died 3 seconds before it faded. Top one before that was mid 90’’s for a slightly longer fight.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s a very common generalization. Assuming level 60, on high level raid targets. If it was less than 10% people wouldn’t be so thirsty for Primals. If it was much more than 10% people would scream at shamans for it even more than they do already.

It feels like a cheesy estimation but my best avatar disc on vindi was 110 dps and I died 3 seconds before it faded. Top one before that was mid 90’’s for a slightly longer fight.

That's some nice DPS! Thanks for sharing that. Always nice to see more parses.

[Ripqozko]

My best ranger vindi

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 132s, 175k @1326dps --- A Drakkel Dire Wolf 20k @161dps --- Knapsack 16k @121dps --- Ripqozko 15k @118dps --- Idrinkk 13k @109dps --- Rikyr 12k @92dps --- Trazzle 12k @89dps --- Gatitos 11k @87dps --- Logaluger 11k @85dps --- Jenssen 10k @78dps --- Torstein 10k @75dps

The reason folks say 10% is cause of the attack boost. The stats are fluff usually for dps on raiders , the dex and agi are nice but don't really boost raid dps (yes I know procs but lot don't land on raid targets).

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Ripqozko [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My best ranger vindi

/GU Derakor the Vindicator in 132s, 175k @1326dps --- A Drakkel Dire Wolf 20k @161dps --- Knapsack 16k @121dps --- Ripqozko 15k @118dps --- Idrinkk 13k @109dps --- Rikyr 12k @92dps --- Trazzle 12k @89dps --- Gatitos 11k @87dps --- Logaluger 11k @85dps --- Jenssen 10k @78dps --- Torstein 10k @75dps

The reason folks say 10% is cause of the attack boost. The stats are fluff usually for dps on raiders , the dex and agi are nice but don't really boost raid dps (yes I know procs but lot don't land on raid targets).

Ah if the quote is specific to raiding that makes sense, as you are probably not getting the full 100 STR due to it being closer to cap already from gear and FoS.

Thanks for the clarity.