Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please stop telling people nonsense because you can't admit to being wrong.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The thing that changes is the duration of the fight, NOT the DPS of the mob.

The DPS that the MOB is able to perform CAN ABSOLUTELY be affected by variables introduced by other players doing things such as Stunning, Fearing, Mezzing, Kiting or Slowing the mob etc., and I am not sure why you are acting like you are not aware of that simple fact. Again, we are NOT comparing "class capabilities in a vacuum" nor assuming "perfect" play (which would only be possible by automated play/scripting, which is against the rules), nor pretending that the players in the hypothetical group are letting their groupmate solo a mob simply so that it can be argued "the DPS is the same group or solo!" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But also, that is simply NOT the ONLY thing that changes when comparing Solo vs Group environment hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] The simple fact of the matter is in a group environment, variables introduced by each player affect the DPS a given PLAYER in the group will be performing / will be able to perform on a given MOB, because - UNLIKE in SOLO situations - what other players are doing "changes the DPS equation" (to use your own words).

Again, simply for the sake of civil discussion I must ask you (DSM):

If DPS captured/performed by a solo player will be the same as DPS captured/performed by a player in a group who is actively grouped with 3 others (not solo), please elaborate why you mentioned (and what you meant when you mentioned) "variables out of your control" and "once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation" in regards to DPS performance while grouped in the below - direct - Quotes?

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

in a group setting, there are too many variables out of your control that can skew the data

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Once you add in outside variables, that changes the DPS equation NOT because of what the class can do, but because of what other players are doing.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've said multiple times I am willing to test it in person, lets do it! You just never actually commit. If you are actually willing to test in person, just PM me and we can set up a date + time. I just posted a video yesterday of myself and Pint doing some testing with SKs. It was fun! So you have proof that I am willing to do it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJwu-fFy0dk

The problem here is that the SK was a trivial test. This test is much more complex, and we'd need to establish multiple points of measurement. I think it's fair to say nothing of this magnitude has ever been attempted before. Also, we have no idea what "Best" means in the context of the OP. Does this mean best for farming xp, best for sniping nameds across the world, etc.

For example, if this is a raw xp/hour test, shaman's need very specific conditions to optimize their group dps. Things like killing mobs slowly enough to regen pox/bane mana, epic being able to run it's full duration, etc. This is why most shaman's just click jbb when they are in groups. The other group members would effectively have to leave your mobs alone to truly optimize Shaman dps. This is why most shaman's just end up soloing, where they have 100% control of the situation.

This is really a matter of dps vs utility. You'd effectively need to prove that a shaman's utility can offset the increased dps of a mage(it's already been established that mages are superior group dps). Since the group would already have 3 rooters, 2 slowers, and mala with an cleric/enc/enc/mage, we'd need to try and compile a list of mobs that we believe either needs torpor to win, or needs a 4th rooter, or a 3rd slower, or a slightly tankier class, or all of the above or some combination of those.

I honestly don't know how we could test this, but willing to discuss criteria. I don't believe we should be talking about splitting up group members for optimizing named mob kills. In 99.9% of situations a "group" stays together in the same zone, so I think we should at least make that rule.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem here is that the SK was a trivial test. This test is much more complex, and we'd need to establish multiple points of measurement. I think it's fair to say nothing of this magnitude has ever been attempted before. Also, we have no idea what "Best" means in the context of the OP. Does this mean best for farming xp, best for sniping nameds across the world, etc.

For example, if this is a raw xp/hour test, shaman's need very specific conditions to optimize their group dps . Things like killing mobs slowly enough to regen pox/bane mana, epic being able to run it's full duration, etc. This is why most shaman's just click jbb when they are in groups. The other group members would effectively have to leave your mobs alone to truly optimize Shaman dps. This is why most shaman's just end up soloing, where they have 100% control of the situation.

This is really a matter of dps vs utility. You'd effectively need to prove that a shaman's utility can offset the increased dps of a mage(it's already been established that mages are superior group dps). Since the group would already have 3 rooters, 2 slowers, and mala with an cleric/enc/enc/mage, we'd need to try and compile a list of mobs that we believe either needs torpor to win, or needs a 4th rooter, or a 3rd slower, or a slightly tankier class, or all of the above or some combination of those.

I honestly don't know how we could test this, but willing to discuss criteria.

The first test will be easy enough. We can do some DPS comparisons solo vs. group in a time sliced manner. You don't need to play for 2 hours straight to get a good estimate. 15-30 minutes of an example group will do the trick. You can simply extrapolate how the group would continue doing. We could do this as a duo.

That will solve the basic disagreement that solo DPS is somehow vastly different from group DPS. As long as both of us agree to how we want to time slice the group vs. solo play, it shouldn't be a big deal.

I don't think there is much point in trying to measure something as nebulous as player fatigue, since everybody is different. We would need to somehow survey the entire server to get an idea of how lazy people are on average hehe.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The first test will be easy enough. We can do some DPS comparisons solo vs. group in a time sliced manner. You don't need to play for 2 hours straight to get a good estimate. 15-30 minutes of an example group will do the trick. You can simply extrapolate how the group would continue doing. We could do this as a duo.

That will solve the basic disagreement that solo DPS is somehow vastly different from group DPS. As long as both of us agree to how we want to time slice the group vs. solo play, it shouldn't be a big deal.

I don't think there is much point in trying to measure something as nebulous as player fatigue, since everybody is different. We would need to somehow survey the entire server to get an idea of how lazy people are on average hehe.

A duo would not suffice in the context of this discussion, unfortunately. That would actually start to favor the shaman more since mobs wouldn't be dieing as fast. And shamans are typically their strongest either solo/duo. Given this is a 4 person discussion thread, we have to stick to 4. No more, no less.

I propose a 1 hour clear to disco two with enc/enc/cleric/mage, and then repeat with enc/enc/cleric/shaman. I have a cleric on a separate account that you could also play when not driving the shaman, or welcome to log one of your own if you happen to have one. Depending on the results of this test, we could expand this to an even harder zone. We could try an HS South crawl. This would be fun to make a video of, but we would need willing participants.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A duo would not suffice in the context of this discussion, unfortunately. That would actually start to favor the shaman more since mobs wouldn't be dieing as fast. And shamans are typically their strongest either solo/duo. Given this is a 4 person discussion thread, we have to stick to 4. No more, no less.

I propose a 1 hour clear to disco two with enc/enc/cleric/mage, and then repeat with enc/enc/cleric/shaman. I have a cleric on a separate account that you could also play when not driving the shaman, or welcome to log one of your own if you happen to have one.

If you can find those other people, let me know, and we can coordinate.

By ourselves we can at least show the difference between a solo player and a duo. If you are indeed correct that DPS will vastly change, we should see some sort of noticeable change with two people. It would help to move the needle at least.

Worst case we have some videos on how a Shaman/Enchanter duo together.

[7thGate]

If you're up for it and have enchanters who don't mind breaking SG faction, I would be really curious how the two comps handle the temple area at the bottom of the tube in SG.

There's 56 mobs down there on a 28 minute respawn cycle, and its a pretty challenging area with a lot of opportunities to flex. I've led raid forces and an all-rogues group (with factioned cleric for healing between fights and pocket buffers) at that camp, but I haven't been very involved with cleric/chanter stuff there since I don't play those classes.

[Crede]

Originally Posted by 7thGate [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you're up for it and have enchanters who don't mind breaking SG faction, I would be really curious how the two comps handle the temple area at the bottom of the tube in SG.

There's 56 mobs down there on a 28 minute respawn cycle, and its a pretty challenging area with a lot of opportunities to flex. I've led raid forces and an all-rogues group (with factioned cleric for healing between fights and pocket buffers) at that camp, but I haven't been very involved with cleric/chanter stuff there since I don't play those classes.

Probably a better test for sure, given the increased difficulty of the mobs, we want to see the full power of each composition. I'm up for it.

[Jimjam]

That reads like a good place to flex a shaman. As I understand mage pets start to get outshined by higher level mobs, whereas spells once landed don’t get mitigated which plays into the shaman’s favour.

Will the mobs being 51+ be problematic for this suggested rootrot strategy as they’ll likely be able to summon? How many can be tankrotted with slow/torp while the groups pets chew down maintarget mobs?

An interesting experiment.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Crede [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Probably a better test for sure, given the increased difficulty of the mobs, we want to see the full power of each composition. I'm up for it.

Yeah let me know when you want to duo and we can coordinate. I am excited!

For the 4 man group, you will need to find the other players. Based on the simple truth that people have discarded my evidence in this thread so far, I don't think people will believe me if I put together the group. I will be accused of telling the other players to play poorly or something. That is why I haven't done a video before, it seemed pretty pointless.

There is no way I can doctor the evidence if the group is assembled by someone who disagrees with me. It will also probably make it more challenging for myself, which is fun!

[Crede]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That reads like a good place to flex a shaman. As I understand mage pets start to get outshined by higher level mobs, whereas spells once landed don’t get mitigated which plays into the shaman’s favour.

Will the mobs being 51+ be problematic for this suggested rootrot strategy as they’ll likely be able to summon? How many can be tankrotted with slow/torp while the groups pets chew down maintarget mobs?

An interesting experiment.

I think root rotting will become less valid here but given the increased difficulty it might allow shaman utility to shine more which is essentially what this thread has come down to mage dps Vs shaman utility.

I also have access to an enc with wrecked sg faction so definitely like this idea.