Class Experience Penalties

[Elerion]

Originally Posted by Goobles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fuck yo thread (image edited out)

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[Takshaka]

threads can never have enough shitting.

[Goobles]

Originally Posted by Elerion [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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OWNED!

[Jereziah]

There's far too many valid points around the experience penalty for us to just 'stfu' about it. Some extremely valid points were made by everyone, including you Aeolwind.

So we all agree that some things suck, and some rock. Aeol, why are you folks so opposed to doing away with it? Clearly you're not adhering to a 100% classic feel as you yourself just pointed out Kedge is open...

If we're seriously playing classic everquest, close kedge, get rid of the compass in game, bring back sense heading, get rid of maps entirely, get rid of item linking (wasn't in game at release), etc etc.

Pick a side please Aeol, either you're for 100% classic or you're for modified classic, capturing the essence of it (which you've done perfectly btw) while filtering out the BS mechanics that NO ONE enjoys.

[Aeolwind]

Originally Posted by Jereziah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's far too many valid points around the experience penalty for us to just 'stfu' about it. Some extremely valid points were made by everyone, including you Aeolwind.

So we all agree that some things suck, and some rock. Aeol, why are you folks so opposed to doing away with it? Clearly you're not adhering to a 100% classic feel as you yourself just pointed out Kedge is open...

If we're seriously playing classic everquest, close kedge, get rid of the compass in game, bring back sense heading, get rid of maps entirely, get rid of item linking (wasn't in game at release), etc etc.

Pick a side please Aeol, either you're for 100% classic or you're for modified classic, capturing the essence of it (which you've done perfectly btw) while filtering out the BS mechanics that NO ONE enjoys.

We'll make those modifications to the client that you are asking for and have the server closed next week. Ok? Would that resolve your issues? Seriously, my last post on the subject. You can turn the compass of yourself, the maps are part of the client, and we left item linking as a QOL bonus.

If you don't like the flavor in our sandbox, leave. I'm done.

[Goobles]

Originally Posted by Jereziah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

There's far too many valid points around the experience penalty for us to just 'stfu' about it. Some extremely valid points were made by everyone, including you Aeolwind.

So we all agree that some things suck, and some rock. Aeol, why are you folks so opposed to doing away with it? Clearly you're not adhering to a 100% classic feel as you yourself just pointed out Kedge is open...

If we're seriously playing classic everquest, close kedge, get rid of the compass in game, bring back sense heading, get rid of maps entirely, get rid of item linking (wasn't in game at release), etc etc.

Pick a side please Aeol, either you're for 100% classic or you're for modified classic, capturing the essence of it (which you've done perfectly btw) while filtering out the BS mechanics that NO ONE enjoys.

If you're volunteering to re-code all client side shits, get started imo. We'll be here waiting. Probably in Velious by the time you figure it out.

[Jereziah]

We'll make those modifications to the client that you are asking for and have the server closed next week. Ok?

That's the first post you've made that provides any reason at all as to why you guys aren't in support of this. Prior to this it's been simply your opinion.

So from this, I gather that you're saying code-wise, it's too difficult for you to make these changes? If that's the case, there's quite literally nothing we can do and continuing to discuss it would be futile. I just hope you're not lying to end the post as there's a lot of people here that support you guys, don't take that for granted.

[Halladar]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Interesting info on the ships. I agree with that judgment call, all that work just to get the ugly erudin shuttle working in place of the correct ships probably isn't worth the opportunity cost.

I haven't really weighed in on my own opinion on the XP penalty, besides its nuisance factor (which, as noted, isn't correct and will likely go bye-bye thanks to this thread). As such, I'll do so now.

Pre-expansion, they don't hurt. I don't consider them necessary, but I don't consider them entirely out of place, either. Frankly, Paladins and SK's are superior to warriors in all situations outside main-tanking raid bosses when you have a Cheal chain running, and the hybrids aren't even much worse for THAT. Warriors were a pretty crummy class pre-expansion (and were even worse, initially, before they had things like berserker at low health). In addition, hybrids have a few bonuses here they lacked on Live, such as spellcasting not refreshing melee delay (which wasn't in until Velious).

With all that in mind, I can tolerate the penalty, and it wouldn't bother me at all if only my wife's Cleric didn't outlevel my Paladin so bad. You'll never see me say I like it, but it's tolerable in its current form, and will be moreso once group experience is properly allocated.

Once Kunark rolls around, and Warriors are relatively better thanks to things like /disc defensive, I'd re-evaluate the presence of those penalties. Verant did--just slowly (they remained in until Early Velious).

Danth

If the exp penalty goes away for grouping, it will be as though there isn't one at all.

I know sk's can fear kite, and bards have been awesome soloers at certain times in game history. Rangers, in later eras of the game have been good soloers as well (though not so much in this era).

But most of your experience is going to come in groups. And if the penalty doesn't apply in groups, it is pretty much not going to be there at all.

But I think you might downrate warrior usefulness a little pre-kunark. And I might add, this particular debate is pretty much a warrior vs. sk/pal thing.

1) Are warriors on a different melee damage table than paladins/sk's right now?

2) How is 2h damage compared to dual wielding? In 1999 before the changes they made to 2h damage, it was pretty weak compared to dual wield. I guess they are using a later version of the game mechanics, so 2h damage should be much better helping the sk/pal, who can hold aggro with spells.

Most warriors are going to dual wield, for ... well let's not talk about aggro and weapons here. That has filled up uncounted threads over the years, let's just say they are going to dual wield except for certain situations and leave it at that.

But in 1999 warriors did about 20-30% more melee damage than a paladin or sk. There's not much to say about paladin damage, since the spells and aa/disciplines a paladin used for damage aren't here yet, and may never be.

The sk's are a little different. Theoretically they do more damage, but the taps are pretty useless till level 49. You get the heat blood line. The pet is a weak dot (that might actually work decently here right now). But the levels you get things, or even the effect is nerfed (vampiric embrace, the self lifetap proc for example) compared to necros.

In 1999 though a lot of sk's didnt' cast in combat because they lost damage (the spell cast/weapon swing thing you referred to), except to produce a specific effect like snaring. Or if it was on the death run, to tap a little health since it was going to die anyway, and you always had lots of mana.

3) Do Warriors get their "the most a mob can hit me for is one increment less than anyone else can be hit for" thing here? Big for raid mobs, not so much in xp groups though.

Maybe warriors (and rogues and monks) should be beefed up, not give an xp penalty to hybrids.

Though that is beyond the scope of this exercise I think.

But if the xp penalty in groups thing is taken away (which I think is a good idea), it's pretty much like not having one as it plays out right now.

But it's not justified either, except to make a niche for one class (warrior). And that only for 2 of the hybrid classes?

[Jereziah]

To recap then, we've got 2 major issues on the table.

1) Warrior usefulness may go down if we nerf the exp penalty, thus encouraging everyone to simply play something else.

2) It's alleged that while grouped, exp is supposed to be equal.

Both great points and I believe we're still waiting on a dev to confirm item 2.

[Halladar]

Originally Posted by Jereziah [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's the first post you've made that provides any reason at all as to why you guys aren't in support of this. Prior to this it's been simply your opinion.

So from this, I gather that you're saying code-wise, it's too difficult for you to make these changes? If that's the case, there's quite literally nothing we can do and continuing to discuss it would be futile. I just hope you're not lying to end the post as there's a lot of people here that support you guys, don't take that for granted.

He said client wise, ie the part on your computer at home that came with titanium. It is compiled code, and I'm sure that while the devs for this project could give you a good idea of the basic operation, and what does what, no one involved with any of these emu things is making any change to the client on your home computer.

We aren't talking about spell icons, and spell windows and whatnot, or renaming zone files.

At least that is what I think he means.