PVP suggestion changes

[Shutt]

Originally Posted by Kergan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Against my better judgement I'm going to stop trolling for one post and comment thoughtfully.



I know I'm not alone in saying if everything I had here was wiped out I'd just stop playing here. I think a lot of us came here because of the stability in addition to having the closest to classic experience offered anywhere, including on the live progression servers. I'd be very hesitant to invest the time required to level up with classic exp rates again if I've already had that time investment torpedoed once.



I'm not sure how that has any negative impact? If I'm on blue and have a ton of in game wealth, I see it as a good thing that I can avoid starting over from scratch. It might be the difference between me playing on red at all. Despite the whining of the vocal minority here on the forums, the vast majority of red appreciates higher population regardless of their play style or origin.



I'm cool with a new team server. I think the absolute best time on any EQ server is the pre Kunark era, and part of that is the battle over items like a manastone or guise of the deceiver. When I lived through it on live, nobody gave too big a shit because nobody knew they were going away. I wasn't around for it on r99 but from where I hear it was a fuckin' pussy blasting bloodbath. Why would we want to skip that?

I'm also very strongly against item loot, but we don't really need to have that discussion in this thread for the 100th time.



Good in theory, but enforcement in general requires staffing. At some point we need to be realistic. There are currently 4 CSR staff listed. If they are averaging 4-6 hours a day dealing with P99 and we on red are roughly 20% of total P99 population, we should reasonably expect someone around even looking at petitions for red only about 4-5 hours a day. That just isn't enough time to have an iron fist, unless you want a lot of shitty rash decisions being made without proper investigations. I'd much rather have a guilty person get away with it than an innocent person banned.

1. I disagree that a lot of people would stop playing if they lost their gear in a fresh start. People come back and start fresh from bans, this would be no different, with the exception that newer players would have a more level playing field, encouraging higher server population. Personally I think it is an argument that the older, better geared players use to fend off the threat to their gear pools.

2. Developing wealth on a blue server with no pvp competition is easier than doing so on red. By removing this ability to transfer wealth, it stops over night fungi twinks from griefing (it will also reduce the amount of one sided resourse trades that the guides have to investigate to rule out RMT). These hurt server population, both ungeared new players from blue and existing red players, they don't help server population.
The 'vocal minority' argument has no evidence to support that it is actually a minority, merely an opinion statement to try to add the appearance of legitimacy to a claim. In fact this section is all based on opinions stated as if they were facts backed by evidence. In my experience most players don't even come to the boards to post, you can look at the lack of diversity in posters to see this is true.

3. Open server as a progression style server for release of expansion material, using prenerf as GM event items merely gives a method for new players to come to the server and still obtain prenerfed items, post nerf. This will help ensure people that come on board later will actually have a chance to get a slice of the pie, without having to pay big money for an item and gives them the chance to get no drop prenerf as well.

For the 100th time in this thread ... really?

4. Give an incentive for people to join the guide program to increase their ranks. Say for every hour of time put in they receive a 'guide point' to be spent for gear, XP, faction work, etc, etc for their characters. This will offset the fact that they are spending their 'game time' policing the masses instead of xping/gearing their toons. Just because there is a lack of people to enforce the rules isn't an excuse to not try to find a new method for accomplishing the enforcement of those rules. The current method doesn't do the trick, arguing to continue down this road will do just the same ... nothing. I'd rather see the occasional 'innocent' get the shaft and the bulk of bad players get what they deserve. The ironfist method will provide a legitimate deterrent, the current method, obviously does not.

[Shutt]

Originally Posted by Emoteen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm all for SZ teams server - no pvp level limit.

Go go good team...

I say no lvl limit as well, the +/-8 is just my preference for 'in range' pvp, for coin loot and insignia loot.

[Kergan]

1. I disagree that a lot of people would stop playing if they lost their gear in a fresh start. People come back and start fresh from bans, this would be no different, with the exception that newer players would have a more level playing field, encouraging higher server population. Personally I think it is an argument that the older, better geared players use to fend off the threat to their gear pools.

Why would you base any argument on what people who get banned do? Regardless, there is a huge difference between fucking up and paying the price and having something earned legitimately taken away from you. That would be akin to saying people who get caught robbing a bank should feel the same about having that cash taken away as someone having a legitimately earned paycheck torn up in front of them.

2. Developing wealth on a blue server with no pvp competition is easier than doing so on red. By removing this ability to transfer wealth, it stops over night fungi twinks from griefing (it will also reduce the amount of one sided resourse trades that the guides have to investigate to rule out RMT). These hurt server population, both ungeared new players from blue and existing red players, they don't help server population.
The 'vocal minority' argument has no evidence to support that it is actually a minority, merely an opinion statement to try to add the appearance of legitimacy to a claim. In fact this section is all based on opinions stated as if they were facts backed by evidence. In my experience most players don't even come to the boards to post, you can look at the lack of diversity in posters to see this is true.

I disagree that it is more difficult to amass wealth on red. First off, it's not a 1 to 1 exchange rate. Secondly, there are approximately 20-25% of the people but the same exact world.

I don't see how blue to red trades hurts the population, you don't give any specifics why you think it does either aside from the admittedly true statement that guides/GMs have to investigate these one sided trades. But how does extra staff time translate into something hurting the population? The fact you now have a twinked out blue player looking to exp combined with the fact that he/she is highly incentivized to do so in a full group means a lot of legit newbs in rags are going to have a nice gravy train to ride. I've experienced it first hand leveling up my SK, when I'm essentially powerleveling some warrior who is asking for bronze drops to upgrade his rawhide. We both benefit and everyone is happy.

I also think there is plenty of evidence that new players are welcomed on red even if PVP isn't their focus, considering the two largest guilds that comprise the majority of players on the server 50+ state it pretty openly.

3. Open server as a progression style server for release of expansion material, using prenerf as GM event items merely gives a method for new players to come to the server and still obtain prenerfed items, post nerf. This will help ensure people that come on board later will actually have a chance to get a slice of the pie, without having to pay big money for an item and gives them the chance to get no drop prenerf as well.

For the 100th time in this thread ... really?

I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I took it as the prenerf period would cease to exist and those items would only be obtainable via GM events. I'm in 100% agreement about things like a guise or manastone being available via GM event after the prenerf clock has run out, and I'd even go it a step further and have some sort of hotzone type events where the prenerf version goes back in for a week or two randomly.

As for the 100th time comment, I didn't mean in this thread, I meant for the 100th time overall, just occurring in this thread if that makes sense. I just feel that topic has been beat into the ground at this point, people are either strongly in favor or strongly against. I happen to be strongly against it.

4. Give an incentive for people to join the guide program to increase their ranks. Say for every hour of time put in they receive a 'guide point' to be spent for gear, XP, faction work, etc, etc for their characters. This will offset the fact that they are spending their 'game time' policing the masses instead of xping/gearing their toons. Just because there is a lack of people to enforce the rules isn't an excuse to not try to find a new method for accomplishing the enforcement of those rules. The current method doesn't do the trick, arguing to continue down this road will do just the same ... nothing. I'd rather see the occasional 'innocent' get the shaft and the bulk of bad players get what they deserve. The ironfist method will provide a legitimate deterrent, the current method, obviously does not.

Like I said, in a perfect world we'd have plenty of people to enforce a great set of rules. I'm not arguing with what you want, I'm just saying it isn't realistic. Putting any sort of incentive on being on staff is going to attract the wrong kind of people. You want people there because they really love doing it and for no other reason.

And agree to disagree on the innocents getting punishment.

[maerilith]

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thread still just as bad as when OP pressed submit to firegiantry

[Shutt]

Originally Posted by Kergan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why would you base any argument on what people who get banned do? Regardless, there is a huge difference between fucking up and paying the price and having something earned legitimately taken away from you. That would be akin to saying people who get caught robbing a bank should feel the same about having that cash taken away as someone having a legitimately earned paycheck torn up in front of them.



I disagree that it is more difficult to amass wealth on red. First off, it's not a 1 to 1 exchange rate. Secondly, there are approximately 20-25% of the people but the same exact world.

I don't see how blue to red trades hurts the population, you don't give any specifics why you think it does either aside from the admittedly true statement that guides/GMs have to investigate these one sided trades. But how does extra staff time translate into something hurting the population? The fact you now have a twinked out blue player looking to exp combined with the fact that he/she is highly incentivized to do so in a full group means a lot of legit newbs in rags are going to have a nice gravy train to ride. I've experienced it first hand leveling up my SK, when I'm essentially powerleveling some warrior who is asking for bronze drops to upgrade his rawhide. We both benefit and everyone is happy.

I also think there is plenty of evidence that new players are welcomed on red even if PVP isn't their focus, considering the two largest guilds that comprise the majority of players on the server 50+ state it pretty openly.



I think I misunderstood what you were saying. I took it as the prenerf period would cease to exist and those items would only be obtainable via GM events. I'm in 100% agreement about things like a guise or manastone being available via GM event after the prenerf clock has run out, and I'd even go it a step further and have some sort of hotzone type events where the prenerf version goes back in for a week or two randomly.

As for the 100th time comment, I didn't mean in this thread, I meant for the 100th time overall, just occurring in this thread if that makes sense. I just feel that topic has been beat into the ground at this point, people are either strongly in favor or strongly against. I happen to be strongly against it.



Like I said, in a perfect world we'd have plenty of people to enforce a great set of rules. I'm not arguing with what you want, I'm just saying it isn't realistic. Putting any sort of incentive on being on staff is going to attract the wrong kind of people. You want people there because they really love doing it and for no other reason.

And agree to disagree on the innocents getting punishment.

The fact that people do come back after losing the gear due to a ban is evidence of how addicted most people who play this game are, to the game itself. That's why I base the argument off of it. Secondly, having money you earned in RL taken from you isn't the same as having items taken from a character on an emu, or that character deleted. You don't actually own the character or the pixels, you are essentially borrowing them and they can be taken away if it is seen to be necessary. Sirken could technically ban us both because his corn flakes didn't taste right this morning.

Obtaining items and plat has always been harder on pvp servers going back to the original four. If your guild is small can it raid all content? Less numbers doesn't mean more opportunity just because camps may be open more often, and pvp involves more CRs than just PVE. Pvp also allows the possibility that the camp you just started gets taken from you before you get the drop you need. The fact that transfers are done at 3 to 1 and 4 to 1, is evidence in itself.

More staff time dedicated to monitoring red/blue transfers means less time monitoring other things. Plus I never said blubies aren't welcome, I just think they should come in as the game was intended to from the start of an account, with nothing.

Putting an incentive on doing time as a guide doesn't necessarily mean you will attracted the 'wrong' people, that's your personal assumption. But thinking that we are going to get enough guides to work for free just because they love to do it is 'living in a perfect world'. I myself don't play seven days a week for 8 plus hours a day, or for that matter even close to it. So I wouldn't take what little play time I do have to donate it to monitor people who can't act right in the first place. I would however gladly donate some of my time to doing so if it was fairly (looking at it from both sides perspective, so it doesn't unbalance play) compensated, therefore making up in some way for the time I've lost in game. Does that mean I'm in it for the wrong reasons? I don't RMT, train, hack, or exploit; are there other wrong reasons to do it? If so what are they and why would it negatively affect the guide program. SOE used to let guildes play for free if they worked so much time in the program, to attract people to do it. I met guides who did it for that reason and told me about it. Don't recall ever having a reason to think they were bad guides, they were actually good at it and nice guys to boot as far as I could tell.

[Shutt]

Originally Posted by maerilith [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

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thread still just as bad as when OP pressed submit to firegiantry

Didn't have time to read the guys post, but you had time to type that all out eh? Talk about firegiantry ...

[maerilith]

tldr, copypaste! ftw

imo time well spent enough for me to come back and edit letting u know how much I enjoyed hitting ctrl c + ctrl p and tapping my spacebar to the sound of life

[Kergan]

Originally Posted by Swyft [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

LOL do you even play on Project99?

Do you? Do you really believe if they gave some sort of in game incentive to be staff you wouldn't have a line a mile long of the biggest douchey neckbeards on the server trying to get in?

[Kergan]

The fact that people do come back after losing the gear due to a ban is evidence of how addicted most people who play this game are, to the game itself. That's why I base the argument off of it.

I agree people who get banned for cheating in a video game are the ones who are so addicted they'll come back after they get caught. But saying this is the norm for a person playing here is just flat out wrong.

Secondly, having money you earned in RL taken from you isn't the same as having items taken from a character on an emu, or that character deleted. You don't actually own the character or the pixels, you are essentially borrowing them and they can be taken away if it is seen to be necessary. Sirken could technically ban us both because his corn flakes didn't taste right this morning.

Of course it isn't the same as real life money. Next time I'll say widgets or something instead of money, because you completely missed the point. Having something you earned/received legitimately taken away is much worse than having something you took illegitimately taken away - how's that?

Obtaining items and plat has always been harder on pvp servers going back to the original four. If your guild is small can it raid all content? Less numbers doesn't mean more opportunity just because camps may be open more often, and pvp involves more CRs than just PVE. Pvp also allows the possibility that the camp you just started gets taken from you before you get the drop you need. The fact that transfers are done at 3 to 1 and 4 to 1, is evidence in itself.

Less numbers does mean more opportunity in a game with a slow spawn rate and 100% non instanced content. And PVP is irrelevant when there are plenty of cash camps where you won't see another player for hours. You're talking like I haven't played on r99 and know what it is like and I'm somehow speculating on this. I know it's true because I've seen it over the last 2 years with my own eyes.

More staff time dedicated to monitoring red/blue transfers means less time monitoring other things. Plus I never said blubies aren't welcome, I just think they should come in as the game was intended to from the start of an account, with nothing.

I agree about the staff time, but I just personally believe removing the biggest barrier of entry from someone coming off the only real recruitment pool red has is more of a benefit than a drawback. Agree to disagree I guess.

Putting an incentive on doing time as a guide doesn't necessarily mean you will attracted the 'wrong' people, that's your personal assumption. But thinking that we are going to get enough guides to work for free just because they love to do it is 'living in a perfect world'. I myself don't play seven days a week for 8 plus hours a day, or for that matter even close to it. So I wouldn't take what little play time I do have to donate it to monitor people who can't act right in the first place. I would however gladly donate some of my time to doing so if it was fairly (looking at it from both sides perspective, so it doesn't unbalance play) compensated, therefore making up in some way for the time I've lost in game. Does that mean I'm in it for the wrong reasons? I don't RMT, train, hack, or exploit; are there other wrong reasons to do it? If so what are they and why would it negatively affect the guide program. SOE used to let guildes play for free if they worked so much time in the program, to attract people to do it. I met guides who did it for that reason and told me about it. Don't recall ever having a reason to think they were bad guides, they were actually good at it and nice guys to boot as far as I could tell.

There is no shortage of guide/staff applications without adding any incentive to it. It just takes them a ridiculous amount of time to vet people because of the long history of abuse of power here.

[fred schnarf]

only incentive that seems to motivate staff and players on red99 is paypal

just saying