Any roll for loot guilds on Green?

[Infectious]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or they understand how the game works, and that humans are naturally motivated to help themselves.

To reduce this to the simplest detail possible: some mobs only drop melee gear, some only drop caster. If you are a melee class in a /random loot guild, every raid you go on to a mob that only drops caster loot is time wasted, and vice versa for casters raiding melee mobs. Pretty soon such guilds can't do (say) Vindi: when they try no casters show up, because they have no reason to.

That's just one basic example, but obviously it's not just about melee vs. caster: whatever your class, the majority of mobs won't drop stuff you can use, but they will need a variety of classes to be beaten. Ultimately, the system is only sustainable for small guilds. If your guild only does stuff like Plane of Sky (where there are drops for everyone) and doesn't do too many epics (so people don't get tired of "wasting" time helping others) then it can be a sustainable model for a guild ...

... but even then, as I pointed out before, it sucks for the casual player, because they can only get gear by going on the raids for "their items" and then winning the random roll. They can't increase their chances of getting said items by attending "worthless" raids, the way members of DKP guilds can.

At the end of the day EQ raiding is about a bunch of people cooperating to get each other loot. A system that encourages such cooperation is going to work better for most ... which is why DKP (or /shudder loot councils) are so prevalent.

Perfectly put. Please add this to wiki.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or they understand how the game works, and that humans are naturally motivated to help themselves.

To reduce this to the simplest detail possible: some mobs only drop melee gear, some only drop caster. If you are a melee class in a /random loot guild, every raid you go on to a mob that only drops caster loot is time wasted, and vice versa for casters raiding melee mobs. Pretty soon such guilds can't do (say) Vindi: when they try no casters show up, because they have no reason to.

That's just one basic example, but obviously it's not just about melee vs. caster: whatever your class, the majority of mobs won't drop stuff you can use. Ultimately, the system is only sustainable for small guilds. If your guild only does stuff like Plane of Sky (where there are drops for everyone) and doesn't do too many epics (so people don't get tired of "wasting" time helping others) then it can be a sustainable model for a guild ...

... but even then, as I pointed out before, it sucks for the casual player, because they can only get gear by going on the raids for "their items" and then winning the random roll. They can't increase their chances of getting said items by attending "worthless" raids, the way members of DKP guilds can.

At the end of the day EQ raiding is about a bunch of people cooperating to get each other loot. A system that encourages such cooperation is going to work better for most ... which is why DKP (or /shudder loot councils) are so prevalent.

I mean your point would be valid if guilds that did roll loot had casters or melees not showing up for raids/encounters unless the drops helped them. But that doesn't happen. The roll loot guilds I have seen over the years all have regular participation from caster/melee in everything (plus, a lot of those guilds may allow rolling for alts too if you're able to get the alt there in time to loot...so that obviates the issue altogether).

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(plus, a lot of those guilds may allow rolling for alts too if you're able to get the alt there in time to loot...so that obviates the issue altogether).

Again, the model works best and tends to be used most by the low-level guilds, which are exactly the ones least likely to have members with multiple raid-level alts. Think about the random guilds you've known: were the like Seal Team and Kingdom (where most members have multiple 60s), or were they like Castle ... or were they like Freya's Chariot? I don't know Freya's Chariot, but I'm willing to guess their average member doesn't even have two 60's.

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But that doesn't happen. The roll loot guilds I have seen over the years all have regular participation from caster/melee in everything

Maybe for awhile, but the very fact that we could only come up with a single active random guild on the entire server shows the ultimate fate of most such guilds.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, the model works best and tends to be used most by the low-level guilds, which are exactly the ones least likely to have members with multiple raid-level alts. Think about the random guilds you've known: were the like Seal Team and Kingdom (where most members have multiple 60s), or were they like Castle ... or were they like Freya's Chariot? I don't know Freya's Chariot, but I'm willing to guess their average member doesn't even have two 60's.



Maybe for awhile, but the very fact that we could only come up with a single active random guild on the entire server shows the ultimate fate of most such guilds.

Every roll guild I've seen on P99 most members have multiple raid level chars and they are in the guild because they don't want to join the guild like Seal Team. Most of these guilds could tackle most content on P99 with the exception of a small subset of some of the highest tier stuff like AoW. The guilds aren't "low level" they're just less demanding of peoples' time.

There are multiple roll guilds on each server currently IIRC. Those guilds don't die out because they are roll loot lol. If they die out it's because they aren't filled with DKP obsessed neckbeards who are unhealthily addicted to raiding on an emulated server for a 23 year old game haha.

Roll loot is a totally fine approach. The only reason you'd be against it is because you have no hobbies outside of P99 raiding and so you whine if someone wins over you who doesn't dedicate all their free time to being a warm body on raids.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Every roll guild I've seen on P99 most members have multiple raid level chars and they are in the guild because they don't want to join the guild like Seal Team. Most of these guilds could tackle most content on P99 with the exception of a small subset of some of the highest tier stuff like AoW. The guilds aren't "low level" they're just less demanding of peoples' time.

There are multiple roll guilds on each server currently IIRC.

Who are these guilds you're referring to?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Roll guilds die out or their good members will leave when they get frustrated by the system. In roll guilds the most active players often lose the roll time and time again on an item they really want (and probably need more than a new/casual raider). It will go to some new guild member who got lucky. After this happens like 30 times, they are going to leave the guild lol. There is just no benefit to playing more, because RNG can literally prevent you from ever getting the item. When you lose your best/most active raiders, the guild is dead or heavily gimped.

With DKP there is typically an upper price ceiling on items, and you can figure out who is probably gunning for the same item with a similar DKP level as yourself. Unless you are trying to get the absolute best loot in the game like a Vulak Robe (in which case people do dump insane amounts of DKP), you can get the item you are looking for once you hit the DKP ceiling for that item, or bid a little higher than the ceiling to guarantee you win the bid.

I haven't seen a roll guild compete for any good raid content. They really only get a nibble when there are open server events or maybe quakes. They usually stick to low end raiding like PoSky, clearing Hate/Fear Trash, Fear Golems, HoT, Kael Arena, etc.

Most people prefer DKP because they get rewarded for their participation, where roll guilds do not reward participation. It's pretty simple. A lot of people see no point in showing up to a raid where they get nothing for the time spent. You always at least get DKP with a DKP guild, which can be spent later for an item you want. There are even methods outside of raiding that can net you DKP if you can't show up to raids as often, such as leveling alts, camping consumable items, etc.

Honestly I am not sure why people complain about the DKP system. Most items casual players would want do not go for an unobtainable amount of DKP. Just save up and buy. If you are super casual and want a Vulak Robe, you are just being greedy. It's no joke when I say there are maybe 5 Vulak Robes that drop per real life year. It's not fair for the players who dump a ton of time into this game to get shafted on an item like that simply due to RNG.

[Toxigen]

even if you think you want to be in a roll-for-loot guild, you dont

[sajbert]

Rolling doesn’t work when most bosses don’t drop loot you need.

Loot council is almost always a bad idea.

PlatinumDKP would be interesting but breeds RMT.

DKP is flawed in that the price of items varies wildly depending on uour luck and timing.

No reason to shun DKP really, not on p99 anyway. However, minimum raid attendance requirement IS bullshit and any other such crap to gatekeep casuals from getting loot.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

even if you think you want to be in a roll-for-loot guild, you dont

You are literally in a roll for loot guild as we speak

[Jimjam]

The issue for roll to loot, from a casual perspective, is you will really appreciate even the mediocre drops as upgrades to your main but a hardcore with better items will roll against you for ‘fashion’, an alt or a ‘different stat set’ as there is no opportunity cost to rolling a dice.