Solo Barbarian Shaman Stat Allocation

[Danth]

I agree no serious player is going to totally focus on one statistic to the exclusion of all else. Stamina does buff easier. You can get 50 stamina from riotous health, and another 50 using alchemy if you really want to. Meanwhile a shaman's wisdom buff is only 10. Countering the truth that running out of health is worse than running out of mana is the other truth that any serious solo'er doing something really hard is going to have heal clicks like stinging wort at the ready to cover damage spikes and slow resist chains. Recovering mana in a hurry is rather more problematic.

As a rule a solo shaman will tend to favor armor and health, while a duo or grouper shaman will tend to favor mana pool. I prefer to achieve such focus through gearing. A barbarian shaman going 25 wisdom and 5 stamina at creation starts with 105 to both--a nice enough starting point that provides good flexibility for a player to gear himself with either focus and not hamstring himself should he change his mind later on.

Danth

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree no serious player is going to totally focus on one statistic to the exclusion of all else. Stamina does buff easier. You can get 50 stamina from riotous health, and another 50 using alchemy if you really want to. Meanwhile a shaman's wisdom buff is only 10. Countering the truth that running out of health is worse than running out of mana is the other truth that any serious solo'er doing something really hard is going to have heal clicks like stinging wort at the ready to cover damage spikes and slow resist chains. Recovering mana in a hurry is rather more problematic.

As a rule a solo shaman will tend to favor armor and health, while a duo or grouper shaman will tend to favor mana pool. I prefer to achieve such focus through gearing. A barbarian shaman going 25 wisdom and 5 stamina at creation starts with 105 to both--a nice enough starting point that provides good flexibility for a player to gear himself with either focus and not hamstring himself should he change his mind later on.

Danth

Yeah, you're absolutely right: it really matters what you're planning to do with your Shaman, and it's not one size fits all, or even one size fits all non-raiders.

For instance, the wort pot thing is a perfect example: if you're talking about repeatedly farming something, using wort pots is prohibitively expensive, so you'd never want to burn through them except in a worst-case scenario. But if, on the other hand, you're trying to solo something that few others have ever soloed before, wort pots (and a bunch of other consumables) are all but required.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, you're absolutely right: it really matters what you're planning to do with your Shaman, and it's not one size fits all, or even one size fits all non-raiders.

While this is true to an extent, i hope you respond to my last post. Because i really do think you are doing a disservice to OP by suggesting 25sta.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah, you're absolutely right: it really matters what you're planning to do with your Shaman, and it's not one size fits all, or even one size fits all non-raiders..

Yep! And it's also true that these discussions are very much academic because, like we're both said elsewhere on this board, a player can't really break a shaman at character creation regardless of what race/statistic choices are made. The class is indeed that strong.

Danth

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

While this is true to an extent, i hope you respond to my last post. Because i really do think you are doing a disservice to OP by suggesting 25sta.

Well for one thing I was sort of hoping you'd post some numbers about Sebilite Protector. I did a lot of work to show how HP > mana, and you responded with "well you have to root" without any further explanation of why you'd burn through mana before HP.

Meanwhile, you've provided exactly one example of a camp a non-raid shaman would do that might be better with mana over HP ... whereas most 60 Shaman fights (for gear few other classes can get ... I'm not talking about farming HQ ore in Permafrost obviously) involve slowing a mob and beating it down over time.

And in all those fights (Crypt, WW dragons, PoM A4, etc.) the hard part is living long enough to land slow. So no, I still don't see how 25 Stamina is a disservice.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Meanwhile, you've provided exactly one example of a camp a non-raid shaman would do that might be better with mana over HP ... whereas most 60 Shaman fights (for gear few other classes can get ... I'm not talking about farming HQ ore in Permafrost obviously) involve slowing a mob and beating it down over time.

And in all those fights (Crypt, WW dragons, PoM A4, etc.) the hard part is living long enough to land slow. So no, I still don't see how 25 Stamina is a disservice.

I feel you are either not understanding or not reading my posts. I have already said it does not come down to a choice between mana and hp, but rather a choice between varying levels of flexibility and ultimately higher min max potential at whatever level of gear you find yourself.

The point i was driving home was that by selecting wisdom you can have more mana and hp than a person who selects stamina.

As far as prot, i can coth you down if you’d like to see for yourself. You’ll find my estimation accurate.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by ArbiterBlixen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The point i was driving home was that by selecting wisdom you can have more mana and hp than a person who selects stamina.

No, you can have more mana ... and less HP.

Seriously, this is basic stuff: if you put more starting points into Stamina, you wind up with more HP than if you put them into Wisdom.

[Siberious]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're right: I'm not single-mindledly only going for Stamina gear ... and I don't think most Shaman are either.

There's clickies (goblin earing, epic, JBB), raw HP, FT, regen ... and yes, even mana and Wisdom. Most people are not just going to get +Stamina gear at the exclusion of all other gear ... which makes it all more likely they'll never hit the Stamina cap unless they do high-end raid targets.

Meanwhile, you've yet to suggest what encounter where more mana would help more than more HP. ArbiterBlixen at least (tried to) do that:



I've never soloed a Sebilite Protector, so maybe he's the one exception, but I still highly doubt it based on what you described.

Let's go with the upper end of your estimate, and say it takes 7 slow attempts to slow the guy. Turgur's Insects takes 250 mana per cast, so that's 1750 mana. Presumably, you drop a Malo at the start for 350 more, for a total of 2100 mana. I did not focus on Wisdom/Mana on Loramin, but even so I have 2832 max mana unbuffed, which is enough to cast a malo plus seven slows, and still have 700+ mana left.

But, Malo has a 5 second cast time and Turgur's has a 3 second, so in that whole scenario we're talking 26 seconds of time the Shaman's being beaten on ... plus all the recast time I'm too lazy to calculate, plus more time from fizzles and interrupts ... let's just round to an even half a minute.

Per the wiki, Sebilite Protector hits for 260 - 555 "twice per round", which I guess means every tick/six seconds? So that's 407.5 * 2 = 815 average damage per tick, which means that in a 30 second fight he'll deal on average 4075 damage.

For reference, Loramin has 2392 max HP, and I have at least somewhat tried to focus on HP. So again, I submit that more Stamina/HP is going to help you survive long enough to get the Protector slowed than having more Wisdom/Mana.

But to be fair, it sounds like you're mitigating damage with root, so I'd love to hear your (more accurate) numbers.



As I just listed above, there's lots of things a Shaman should want in their gear. In my experience, all those things do more for a (non-raid) Shaman than having a larger mana pool.

I don't need to suggest an encounter where you need more mana vs hps, I don't care about that argument and made no comments on it. I'm talking about best starting stats for a barb shaman. So that point is moot.

I also never said they should only gear +sta at exclusion of other stats. I said you can focus on good +sta +hp items that also ideally have good +mana when possible. Wisdom sub 200 gives you more mana per point than stamina does hps per point, period. So if you're looking for which stat is superior, there's your answer, especially on a non-raid geared or low end raid geared shaman that is likely to be low on wisdom unless they specifically are gearing for it (which usually is at the cost of +hp gear). I said despite this, if you're so inclined, you could still gear to get your stamina to 205 by selecting items that are flush with it.

Couple quick examples:
Chokidai Hide Pauldrons (+15sta +55hp)
Pearly Sarnak Bauble (+10 sta +35hp)

If you really can't see why +wisdom is a superior starting stat, I can make an entire Magelo for you to show how you could gear your barb shaman in non-high end raid gear and how you'd benefit from the +25 wisdom +5 sta combo more so than the +5 wis +25 sta combo.

I only mentioned your gearing choices because you tried to use your shaman as an example of why you'd want more +sta at char creation, and you have some gear choices that you could instantly make to remedy the problem you're claiming exists.

Star of Eyes can be quested for GCD (from inventory) to replace Goblin ear. Replace it with the above Bauble boom +10 sta +35hp. FT1 is essentially useless on a shaman in your own words as you praise Torpor/Canni (as you should). It's 10 mana per minute, just Canni once and sit and you're better off. Now replace your shawl with the above pauldrons and boom +8 sta +55hp -7 wis (good thing we're suggesting to put more into wisdom at char creation, right!). You've made big sta/hp gains without hamstring any other stats.

I could continue that with more slots, like a forest loop? +3 wis? Replace it even with just a 35hp/25 mana ear. Instant gains. Or if you don't care about AC (I would when you're killing blue con mobs though). You can get the -15ac +8sta +75hp Hammered Loop if you're so inclined.

TLDR - +wisdom sub 200 is more mana per point than +sta is hps per point period. If you're a non-high tiered raid geared barb shaman you'll benefit from bulking up on wisdom at char creation because 105 sta 105 wis puts you at a better starting point for gear selections. You're gonna struggle to find good +wisdom gear that also has big hps on it without going into higher end raid gear. There is plenty of good group or EC bought gear that is flush with +sta +hp however. Do yourself a favor and bulk up on the +wisdom up front.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't need to suggest an encounter where you need more mana vs hps, I don't care about that argument and made no comments on it. I'm talking about best starting stats for a barb shaman.

"best starting stats for a barb shaman" ... to do what?

Did you just completely skip over Danth's post? And as for the rest, I never said Loramin had perfect gear; I said he was fairly representative (if not a bit on the high side) of a non-raid 60 shaman ... and he is. So I don't get the long tirade on what I could do with my gear.

[ArbiterBlixen]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"best starting stats for a barb shaman" ... to do what?

To have more gear flexibility and better overall stats than the guy who thought it was a good idea to choose 25stam.