When are Enchanters will be nerfed?

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First year Enchanters were the buggiest class in the game. I've read the posts from that era and Enchanters didn't even mem mezz because it never worked due to line of sight issues. Mezz was a stun at first

Enchanters were an OP class from the start, most people just didn't realize it. I don't recall Mezz being different from its current state for long, and Whirl Til You Hurl was ridiculously powerful at launch anyway. The "problem" with Mezz during early era EQ was average groups didn't understand how to play with it and were constantly breaking it.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

14 months of classic era then 8 months between Kunark and Velious, probably about 10-12 months of that time Charm should be unusable except for outdoor run speed boosted use or in situations where a group or raid is helping the Enchanter manage things. An Enchanter could not control a pet solo in a dungeon without dying more often than not.

This is inaccurate. Nothing about the code itself changed to let Enchanters suddenly be able to control a charm pet much better. They had the ability from the start and it's not hard to use Color Flux/Color Shift to stun the broken pet, then CC it and re-charm.

There are a large number of factors that contributed to it being less common back then as compared to p99, aside from charm itself being a bit too good on p99:

1.) Color Shift was a research spell so not everyone had it during the first year
2.) Most players back then didn't know about global cooldown reset for spells, so without Color Shift, there's a delay between the aftercast of Color Flux + Mesmerize that means the Enchanter gets hit right before Mezz finishes casting
3.) Channeling was a bit weaker then, so slightly higher chance of Mezz being interrupted at high level, and moderately higher chance at mid level
4.) Much more lag and much less visibility
5.) Less players had high CHA stat
6.) It wasn't as understood to charm something much lower level and drag it around as a pet
7.) No pet window and no "charm wore off" message for the first 10 months
8.) People were simply scared to do certain things back then

There's no doubt Charm would have been nerfed back then if everyone understood how to do it optimally, but it was very powerful from the start and the best players did use it effectively (even if not to the degree that it gets used on p99).

Enchanters didn't need to use Charm to be good at solo/duo during 1999 anyway. The animation pet when being given Daggers (or Gnoll Hide Lariats! Those were super in demand) did huge DPS. It was easy for that pet to chew through slowed/stunned MOBs. Giving a pet low delay weapons did take some time to become common knowledge, but even with a basic pet Enchanters could solo better than most other classes.

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Green launch had level 30 Enchanters using back stabbing goblin pets in sola soloing kindle area in 1-2 weeks.

I mean yeah it's BS, but this is also largely because people understand the game so much better now. Charm pets shouldn't be allowed to backstab or dual wield, the damage is imbalanced.

Originally Posted by PatChapp [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Tola robe kinda pointless anyway due to haste caps.
Clickie haste + muzzle already 73% haste, close enough to haste capped pet.
Can get to 79% with wonderous but usually not needed

Which clickie are you talking about, the epic? It should be 77% with that and muzzle.

Is the pet haste cap not 100?

Originally Posted by Ennewi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Quite a few screenshots like the one above, where it can't be proven that the mob was charmed (as it could easily be aggroed onto a player instead), but the angle suggests it may have been attacking the raid target.

Something that's wrong on p99 is using charm pets against raid targets that can Fear. There are stories of a charmed Imp Protector doing 50% of the raid damage to Nagafen on the first Green raid of him. Like...how? Pets should just be getting Feared away all the time. Their level and MR is too low to ever resist it.

Also, there was a 4-pet limit implemented in Classic EQ. No more than that could attack a target at one time. This was never put into p99.

[Jibartik]

Originally Posted by Jibartik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

would it be a viable strategy to solo wuoshi by training all the giants in the zone on it?

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[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Enchanters were an OP class from the start, most people just didn't realize it. I don't recall Mezz being different from its current state for long, and Whirl Til You Hurl was ridiculously powerful at launch anyway. The "problem" with Mezz during early era EQ was average groups didn't understand how to play with it and were constantly breaking it.



This is inaccurate. Nothing about the code itself changed to let Enchanters suddenly be able to control a charm pet much better. They had the ability from the start and it's not hard to use Color Flux/Color Shift to stun the broken pet, then CC it and re-charm.

There are a large number of factors that contributed to it being less common back then as compared to p99, aside from charm itself being a bit too good on p99:

1.) Color Shift was a research spell so not everyone had it during the first year
2.) Most players back then didn't know about global cooldown reset for spells, so without Color Shift, there's a delay between the aftercast of Color Flux + Mesmerize that means the Enchanter gets hit right before Mezz finishes casting
3.) Channeling was a bit weaker then, so slightly higher chance of Mezz being interrupted at high level, and moderately higher chance at mid level
4.) Much more lag and much less visibility
5.) Less players had high CHA stat
6.) It wasn't as understood to charm something much lower level and drag it around as a pet
7.) No pet window and no "charm wore off" message for the first 10 months
8.) People were simply scared to do certain things back then

There's no doubt Charm would have been nerfed back then if everyone understood how to do it optimally, but it was very powerful from the start and the best players did use it effectively (even if not to the degree that it gets used on p99).

Enchanters didn't need to use Charm to be good at solo/duo during 1999 anyway. The animation pet when being given Daggers (or Gnoll Hide Lariats! Those were super in demand) did huge DPS. It was easy for that pet to chew through slowed/stunned MOBs. Giving a pet low delay weapons did take some time to become common knowledge, but even with a basic pet Enchanters could solo better than most other classes.



I mean yeah it's BS, but this is also largely because people understand the game so much better now. Charm pets shouldn't be allowed to backstab or dual wield, the damage is imbalanced.



Which clickie are you talking about, the epic? It should be 77% with that and muzzle.

Is the pet haste cap not 100?



Something that's wrong on p99 is using charm pets against raid targets that can Fear. There are stories of a charmed Imp Protector doing 50% of the raid damage to Nagafen on the first Green raid of him. Like...how? Pets should just be getting Feared away all the time. Their level and MR is too low to ever resist it.

Also, there was a 4-pet limit implemented in Classic EQ. No more than that could attack a target at one time. This was never put into p99.

My mistake, it is 77% haste with clickie and a muzzle.
A mob would need to be lvl 60 for 100% haste.
Most pets I charm are closer to lvl 50,maxing out at 53.
Haste caps for lvl 50 is 74,and 84 If it's a pet that maxes our boltrans.

So if you were to use wondrous and a muzzle, a maxed out pet would be at 81% haste. Dictate pets not withstanding,though those tend to be different scenarios

[Zuranthium]

That makes sense, is it confirmed NPC's abide by the same haste cap rule as players though? I would still not allow pets to be able to use worn haste outside of the Magician mask anyway.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That makes sense, is it confirmed NPC's abide by the same haste cap rule as players though? I would still not allow pets to be able to use worn haste outside of the Magician mask anyway.

Eq doesn’t tend to put the same restrictions, checks and balances on npc as players. I’d be entirely unsurprised if they have no cap on their haste from level 1.

[Ananka]

"Thott from Afterlife stating Bards were at the MINIMUM equal to Enchanters in charm and in most situations better"

This was mentioned earlier and while I didn't know Thott to speak to him casually I did see his Aftathott running around a ton as I played a high level bard early on and I only saw him in raid situations and grouped going after epic mobs. (I would hang around and watch AL, I was also trying to figure out the epic quest which hadn't been published yet). He gets hype for leading AL and winning best of the best tournaments but his bard had the highest HP's of any bard anywhere early on as he had bis gear and there really wasn't a close second to his bard gear wise anywhere for a long time. He also has said that solo he would fear/snare on the bard. I don't think he represents the average bard at the time or even the average high end bard.

I can tell you that the level 27 charm was great but it only lasted the typical 3 ticks and mobs were going to turn on you a lot each fight unless you timed it just right which wasn't that often. It was risky as heck solo in a dungeon that easily got you killed and was safer in group situations with a healer but that ended at level 37. If an enchanter was in my group I had zero reason to charm ever as their charm lasted way longer and mine felt like a gimmick or trick.

The next charm at 39 was considered a nerf by the Concert Hall community as it needed mana and long charming sessions couldn't be maintained. I would often be OOM in places like Karnor's Castle. Whatever we had with the previous charm was more powerful in classic at the mid levels then it was from Kunark and on.

Long story short, there was zero comfort while charming as a bard, it felt very temporary and dicey, a powerful tool but gimicky. It just had a different feel when enchanters joined the group.

[Vivitron]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eq doesn’t tend to put the same restrictions, checks and balances on npc as players. I’d be entirely unsurprised if they have no cap on their haste from level 1.

I began assuming charm pets follow the player haste cap after killing cliff golems with Tourmaline and Corundium charmed (the level 50 gargoyles). We had a mithril 2 hander on one of them but it seemed to be hitting maybe barely faster than the other.

It shouldn't be too hard to test whether WR gives a large rat 70% or is capped at 50%; if I remember to do it I'll post back.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I began assuming charm pets follow the player haste cap after killing cliff golems with Tourmaline and Corundium charmed (the level 50 gargoyles). We had a mithril 2 hander on one of them but it seemed to be hitting maybe barely faster than the other.

It shouldn't be too hard to test whether WR gives a large rat 70% or is capped at 50%; if I remember to do it I'll post back.

That is interesting. Certainly a good explanation. Thinking of other potential reasons, perhaps they were not able to wield the sword?

[surron]

2 major issues with p99 and enchanter charm... 1 can be fixed, the other not so much.

1. CHA does not affect duration, only affects initial resist check - massive amount of evidence proving this, anecdotal evidence disproving this.

2. individual mobs magic resist values. impossible to gather this information. imo many mobs are too low and attribute to the longer than normal charm times.

the best evidence gathered in this era is from TAKP devs using eqmac and live... massive amount of research for the 2002 era which is not too far from our era

[Encroaching Death]

When I first played this game in 1999, I used to tell my friends that Enchanters were the weakest character to play because their damage spells hit for less than Wizards, etc.

Man, I was a dumbass. Still am.