Enchanter OP impact poll

[surron]

from Torven a TAKP dev (this is data gathered from eqmac a 2002 locked server)... probably the best you'll ever get for p99 era mechanics.

I didn't implement the charm resist logic, I merely un-broke it. The resist check on ticks just wasn't working at all. The only reason some charms even broke early was because the resist check (for all spells) was set to > instead of >=, so it was possible for any target to resist anything at any resist level if it rolled 0.

The current charm resist logic was implemented by Kayen, an eqemu dev. He did many parses on Live some time ago. What I did was replicate his C++ code in lua so I could unit test it and compare it against my own parses. They matched close enough that I accepted it and moved on to the next problem.

Charm is supposed to have a chance to break at any time, on anything, even with 0 resist, even with enchanter AA TD3. If you cast 3 charms, get a bad streak of breaks, and give up, then that's the RNG and not the algorithm.

Also the algorithm currently makes charm much, much less effective on yellows and reds by giving them a substantial resist bonus. I didn't add that, but I left it in. Charm on a white con however will hold as well as charm on a green con so long as tash or malo remains on it. (yellows may hold if you have tash+malo) Charm will not currently hold very well if the target has any significant MR. If you charm a caster and it casts a shielding buff, then it's not gonna hold well unless you debuff it a lot.

Here's some of my parse analyses. Note that average charm durations will not be directly comparable on spells with different maximum durations.

Druid Charm - Al'Kabor

Wooly Rhino (level 38-39), Eastern Wastes - Level 44 Caster
Charms: 37
durations: 32, 104, 3, 18, 39, 56, 71, 142, 45, 7, 83, 12, 110, 49, 146, 55, 67, 18, 0, 1, 74, 40, 14, 21, 41, 46, 13, 146, 28, 30, 89, 100, 24, 51, 83, 10, 5,
min duration: 0 ticks; max duration: 146 ticks; avg duration: 51 ticks


A Rockhopper (level 37-45), Dawnshroud Peaks - Level 46-51 Caster
Charms: 99
durations: 4, 23, 19, 12, 74, 63, 61, 2, 11, 10, 61, 148, 65, 103, 49, 51, 152, 15, 87, 6, 43, 35, 45, 28, 50, 13, 6, 152, 68, 8, 20, 55, 155, 8, 155, 78, 155, 19, 10, 155, 44, 73, 25, 124, 31, 10, 17, 20, 158, 93, 158, 23, 71, 33, 40, 23, 29, 23, 28, 83, 106, 97, 25, 153, 2, 5, 63, 54, 161, 105, 161, 50, 42, 107, 15, 34, 33, 0, 116, 85, 25, 1, 38, 45, 93, 76, 18, 125, 23, 27, 15, 53, 77, 82, 24, 44, 78, 30, 86,
min duration: 0 ticks; max duration: 161 ticks; avg duration: 58.5 ticks


A Raptor (level 40-43), Timorous Deep - Level 51-53 Caster
Charms: 58
durations: 7, 22, 5, 65, 14, 24, 128, 10, 20, 88, 22, 114, 95, 1, 34, 38, 142, 10, 124, 34, 59, 57, 6, 74, 77, 16, 16, 121, 13, 43, 89, 45, 170, 2, 54, 50, 48, 12, 170, 0, 25, 32, 12, 34, 3, 46, 11, 71, 9, 15, 85, 64, 79, 12, 22, 0, 22, 170,
min duration: 0 ticks; max duration: 170 ticks; avg duration: 49.2 ticks


A Vicious Raptor (level 43-45), Timorous Deep - Level 54 Caster; use of Glamour of Tunare
Charms: 40
durations: 4, 47, 18, 98, 83, 149, 112, 69, 7, 8, 57, 35, 81, 3, 32, 33, 7, 34, 66, 66, 47, 92, 61, 70, 84, 89, 67, 173, 62, 41, 2, 30, 4, 59, 28, 18, 165, 34, 1, 24,
min duration: 1 ticks; max duration: 173 ticks; avg duration: 54.4 ticks


A sabertooth grimalkin (level 22-24), Lake of Ill Omen - Level 55 Caster; use of Glamour of Tunare
Charms: 32
durations: 72, 42, 27, 30, 25, 52, 4, 58, 38, 87, 21, 3, 98, 3, 35, 69, 11, 3, 81, 12, 33, 6, 37, 90, 40, 11, 14, 10, 57, 123, 149, 177,
min duration: 3 ticks; max duration: 177 ticks; avg duration: 47.8 ticks


A Raptor (level 40-43), Timorous Deep - Level 55 Caster; use of Glamour of Tunare
Charms: 9
durations: 1, 3, 127, 80, 51, 9, 58, 90, 70,
min duration: 1 ticks; max duration: 127 ticks; avg duration: 54.8 ticks


A Raptor (level 40-43), Timorous Deep - Level 55 Caster; use of Glamour of Tunare
Charms: 52
durations: 92, 62, 54, 48, 32, 175, 156, 94, 93, 163, 8, 10, 69, 73, 55, 17, 51, 31, 32, 13, 14, 176, 128, 100, 14, 73, 89, 175, 22, 15, 37, 19, 121, 31, 11, 3, 55, 95, 53, 121, 28, 42, 65, 71, 46, 53, 22, 14, 125, 29, 10, 62,
min duration: 3 ticks; max duration: 176 ticks; avg duration: 62.8 ticks


A sabertooth grimalkin (level 22-24), Lake of Ill Omen - Level 56 Caster; use of Glamour of Tunare
Charms: 145
durations: 21, 19, 33, 117, 51, 56, 0, 31, 79, 15, 2, 77, 125, 131, 69, 30, 100, 180, 71, 24, 3, 178, 1, 0, 20, 86, 9, 5, 78, 128, 139, 17, 57, 179, 82, 60, 175, 13, 20, 20, 23, 1, 34, 10, 10, 83, 71, 5, 57, 42, 5, 73, 62, 37, 144, 5, 15, 27, 142, 55, 75, 65, 29, 39, 62, 115, 75, 179, 45, 8, 160, 57, 28, 88, 61, 66, 88, 176, 25, 3, 75, 179, 62, 180, 31, 92, 90, 56, 128, 6, 27, 39, 112, 0, 93, 73, 7, 66, 180, 176, 85, 10, 15, 89, 2, 90, 32, 6, 17, 67, 84, 179, 30, 7, 59, 24, 65, 8, 139, 90, 15, 76, 37, 64, 19, 21, 162, 21, 2, 24, 27, 54, 6, 53, 4, 95, 37, 19, 156, 48, 83, 147, 76, 53, 6,
min duration: 0 ticks; max duration: 180 ticks; avg duration: 61.9 ticks


Enchanter Charm - Al'Kabor

Diaku Sentry (level 60) with tash and malo on 100% of the time
Enchanter: Level 65 with TD3; Charisma value uncertain but relatively high if not capped at 305
Full Charm Resists: 0
Maximum Charm Duration: ~07:45 (~77 ticks)
Average Charm Duration: 05:39 (56.5 ticks, 73.3%)
Number of Max Charms: 16 of 36 (44.4%)

The main factor of charm duration is the mobs MR, and there's no way to know those original values and most likely p99 does not have them right.

[Disease]

Originally Posted by surron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

from Torven a TAKP dev (this is data gathered from eqmac a 2002 locked server)... probably the best you'll ever get for p99 era mechanics.




The main factor of charm duration is the mobs MR, and there's no way to know those original values and most likely p99 does not have them right.

Charm lasts as long on a white con as a green... Damn that doesnt sound right.

[surron]

he saying thats how it is in eqemu code, which is what p99 is forked from - unknown if that is the same in p99

[Baler]

Originally Posted by surron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

from Torven a TAKP dev (this is data gathered from eqmac a 2002 locked server)... probably the best you'll ever get for p99 era mechanics.

eqmac was a very different server, They didn't even have doors in kedge keep! [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
shout out to TAKP, great server.

[surron]

I agree, but dont think there would be any reason for eqmac devs to touch charm logic in the few years it was in true development.

In any case, his parses from Al'Kabor match pretty high charm rates - but not really much data in terms of mob diversity.

who knows what p99 has done to the eqemu charm logic. I do know it's different than eqemu because apparently on p99 cha effects charm duration - which isn't a true mechanic (it should only affect initial cast.) Can't find the evidence Torven has from eqmac. who knows if that makes charm shorter/longer on p99 though.

I think the only true changes you'll see get implemented that effect charm duration on p99 are evidence of higher MR on certain mobs but that's hard to come by.

[DMN]

Originally Posted by surron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree, but dont think there would be any reason for eqmac devs to touch charm logic in the few years it was in true development.

In any case, his parses from Al'Kabor match pretty high charm rates - but not really much data in terms of mob diversity.

who knows what p99 has done to the eqemu charm logic. I do know it's different than eqemu because apparently on p99 cha effects charm duration - which isn't a true mechanic (it should only affect initial cast.) Can't find the evidence Torven has from eqmac. who knows if that makes charm shorter/longer on p99 though.

I think the only true changes you'll see get implemented that effect charm duration on p99 are evidence of higher MR on certain mobs but that's hard to come by.

Eh, I certainly haven't seen any solid evidence cha has a statistically significant effect on charm duration yet so /shrug. Maybe they do have it implemented as such. Hour or two of charming with 30 some charm breaks is nothing when testing something that can break in 1 second or last 15 mins.

[magnetaress]

Prove it.

[azxten]

Originally Posted by surron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree, but dont think there would be any reason for eqmac devs to touch charm logic in the few years it was in true development.

In any case, his parses from Al'Kabor match pretty high charm rates - but not really much data in terms of mob diversity.

who knows what p99 has done to the eqemu charm logic. I do know it's different than eqemu because apparently on p99 cha effects charm duration - which isn't a true mechanic (it should only affect initial cast.) Can't find the evidence Torven has from eqmac. who knows if that makes charm shorter/longer on p99 though.

I think the only true changes you'll see get implemented that effect charm duration on p99 are evidence of higher MR on certain mobs but that's hard to come by.

Unfortunate, most of what you're saying fits with what I was reading though.

Enchanters complaining about charm breaking fast on green mobs back in 1999. Fits with the same thing being said.

Also specific mentions about mob MR and that Enchanters believed mob MR scaled with their level so that Enchanters were slowly less able to control mobs as they got higher level.

I do think mob MR and it's impact on charm may be a major thing that is missing. On my Enchanter I only bothered to tash yellow+ mobs but reading classic era posts everyone talks about tash being a requirement even on blues.

Any P99 devs have anything to add to this conversation?

[soxetaqo]

Non-classically overpowered and needs nerf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[soxetaqo]

oops, I mean
Non-classically overpowered and does not need nerf [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]