Project 1999

Go Back   Project 1999 > General Community > Rants and Flames

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 02-19-2022, 12:59 AM
hotkarlmarxbros hotkarlmarxbros is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 121
Default Now that we have confirmed the competitive mechanics on p99 can be cheated...

I think it is time we take this opportunity to look at what exactly can (and is!) being cheated, and rather than focus on the cheaters or the punishments we think they need to receive, focus on just fixing the fucking rules. For years this server had an easily exploitable "coth on pop" ruleset that can be gamed with pixel detection, log reading, or otherwise. You don't need to take my word for it, you can look at a six year old video that provides the exactly mechanism for doing this in stunning detail.

As far as the ruleset goes, I think we can agree that competitive > random. Both sides are in here saying essentially the same thing. They don't want to see competition killed on the server. One side is saying they don't want to see competition killed via permitting the use of automation to exploit the competitive mechanics (ie cheating). The other side is saying they don't want to see competition killed via leaving who-gets-what up to a simple roll of the dice. So we have to get rid of the cheating, and for a temporary measure the best we can do is roll some dice. Even though this is an interim solution, however, we need to tie up some loose ends. Specifically 1) how this /random is implemented and 2) to what exploitable engages this /random needs to apply.

Problem 1: Regardless of the size of the entity, they only get one roller.

Talks abound around this one already. So we are giving guilds that muster a force to barely kill charity Vindis that they ask other guilds to leave alone for half a day so they can take as much time doing it as possible get the same slice of the EV pie as a guild who brings 186 to AoW? That is a glaring flaw in this implementation. This turns it into a solution that the majority of competitive raiders don't want to see. The eventuality is we see alts parked in new guilds, leading the charge for <South Qeynos Bait and Tackle> and <Not Riot> and <Internet Tough Guys>. Or worse yet, 30 unguilded raiders and 100 random new guilds rolling, with all the unguilded people suddenly earning spots on the new guilds roster.

Solution: anyone individual raider interested in the mob gets a roll

Have it be the same as angry. 10 seconds from the first roll, roll on spawn. This way you get a fair representation from all interested parties, and you don't have to worry about nonsense alt guilds showing up trying to game the system. Likely far more interest, so /ran 10000 to reduce ties. Badain already works like this, this should be an easy application of the standard here.

Problem 2: One hour lockout

This makes even less sense than the previous issue. The pathing in Kael is terrible, yes. The solution? FTE earns you a 5 minute lockout. While it is terrible, it isn't "take more than 5 minutes to get the mob to your camp" terrible. All sorts of shenanigans can occur in an hour. The aforementioned 'brand new guild' can take on conveniently guildless and eager members, or people can start shuffling around and dropping and retagging in an hour.

Solution: Winning the random earns you a 5 minute lockout, the same as if you had won FTE.

This will minimize the fuckery that can occur in an hour, and minimize the amount of time interested entities have to stick around to watch another entity, who was either genuinely incapable of killing the target, or just trolling the roll, to sort itself out. No need to implement penalties, just move on to the next guild with the highest roller and start their five minutes after the mob has reset to its spawn and the initial winning guild's 5 minutes have expired. These could be announced after the roll when sorting the winner, eg: "Vanquish first: 97392, Kittens second: 95359, Riot third: 95204."

Problem 3: Mobs going FFA after the one hour lockout

There is no reasonable way to sort the legitimate FTE after "one hour." I promise that under this current implementation, if it goes FFA after one hour, the bean counters will be out in full force and any guild that wins the initial roll and doesn't kill it, the guild that doesn't get fte after "one hour" where previous rulings have been made where "we don't count seconds" are going to result in a petition. Every. Single. Time.

Solution: Sort it out from the jump, don't leave it to more exploitation which we are trying to move away from in the first place.

See above how announcing the order of attempts/5 minute lockouts would address this issue.

Exploitable engages 1: "racing" for Prog and MoTG

How many times we need to see a certain ranger jump off the line faster than everyone else and, instead of turning normally, continue running into the wall and faceplant. Like I said initially though, it isn't about who is doing this, rather that it can be done at all. Not to mention the non-script fudging of the rules. The start line is before the door, but people tap forward so that they won't clip into the door on mob pop. Is this against the rules? Yes. But because it is so prevalent, it becomes the de facto strategy where now you have the majority of racers, if not all of them, essentially breaking the rules. We need our interim /random solution applied here as well until we can think of competitive mechanics that aren't vulnerable to pixel detection.

Exploitable engages 2: Lodi

Lodi, and any clickfest target, is extremely vulnerable to outside automation. Why sit at your desk and click a 'pet kill' macro like a rube when instead you can...not do that and win. We have seen people win Lodi FTEs against a dozen+ other sweaty, hungry turtle hunters and then proceed to not budge in the slightest while it kills them, ie AFK FTEs. As soon as this happened the first time this entire process should've been set in motion, but now that we are here and able to acknowledge that yes, people are making use of external programs to trivialize the content, while others play in earnest only to lose hours and hours of their lives and lose to others who are cheating so egregiously that they aren't even at their PC when they win. What a joke. Apply the /random here and spend some time thinking up a more worthwhile mechanic by which to make it competitive.

Exploitable engages 3: Yelinak, Doze, Nev, Jorl, Fear golems/CT, Ikky, Gore, Sev, VP, Takish, Trak

All of these are races. All of these are vulnerable to people automating their launch off or the line or coth macro when some pixels change on their bind sight or screen share. If the rules say that you need to be staring at your monitor waiting for an event to happen, the entire possibility that others can completely circumvent that and watch netflix or whatever else and remain competitive is the biggest bullshit of all. And what happens then is that the winner of the race then gets to bring their mob into camp with all the buffer time in the world to respond to their batphone. It isn't a stall because its "headed towards camp," which is vague and, more often than not, not the case where the mob starts pathing all kinds of wacky directions. The solution here is not to /rand off the mobs, rather, to mitigate all this 'free time' that winning the race earns you. The mob needs to be 96% within one minute of FTE to eliminate any concern that it was 'untanked' and 'not having to count seconds' and that a small minority of cheaters can dictate the competitive raid scene and lock others out of mobs. No more CT running around for 45 minutes at 100% and saying it isn't a stall. No more Yeli or Doze "was he or wasn't he in range to be hit while they held fte, and did it amount to more than 24 seconds." Get the mobs in summoning range with your raid force to remove all doubt, or get the fuck out of here with your solo hero FTE from a script bullshit.

Bonus exploits: Bard circles, conceding mobs you competed for after they are stable in the other guild's camp, and weaponizing Vulak blocker concessions

This is not related to the immediate issue that the cheating and /random roll is trying to address, but I felt like I had to say it. What the fuck is going on here with this. Bards running perfect circles monopolizing camps with negligible amounts of risk to powerlevel alts and bots through the most arduous part of the leveling process? They have been doing it since Velious launched on p99, and probably before that too. I don't know a fix for this that is in line with the vision of "classic," but perfect circle 25 mob kites definitely wasn't classic, and if it had've reared its ugly head back in the day, you can be the original developers would've shut that shit down immediately.

Similarly to the 'what the fuck is going on here' above, why do we consider a concession valid for a mob that you JUST competed for forcing the opposing guild to go into hurry-up-offense mode and possibly forced an error? I feel like I'm taking crazy pills when I see two or more competing entities acquiesce to this precedent and not stomp their feet and try to get this shit out of here. Mobs you concede should only count for the next valid FTE. You should in no way be able to 'concede' a target you are in no way eligible to kill. Holy hell, how fucking dumb to think anything otherwise.

Lastly, weaponizing Vulak blocker concessions, or any concessions at all really (*cough* Hoshkar) is really out of the spirit of what a concession is trying to achieve. Concessions should last no longer than a generous amount of time for the opposing guild to have a shot at the mob they were competing for at the exact moment. What mob takes more than an hour to FTE and resultingly kill? Concessions should be for one hour. After that, ample time has been given, no reason to continue to not be allowed to go for the mob.

On that same note of changes that are strictly for the better, thank god the 30 minute lockout went away. What a dumb rule that was. Your whole guild has to sit on the sidelines and watch someone else kill something while not being able to contest anything else because....???? Dumb rule, glad to see it gone, has done a lot to encourage competition and fair play. Tracker FTE similarly could use another look as well, but I'm not so certain that it is strictly bad like the previously mentioned topics.

I'm not married to any of these ideas, so if you see a problem with something I said, or had an even better idea of your own, I'd love to hear it. For those of you who just show up to lie, gaslight, and invent your own reality: sorry your life is miserable, don't take that out on the rest of us, I hope things get better for you.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-19-2022, 01:00 AM
Strifer Strifer is offline
Sarnak

Strifer's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: NY
Posts: 260
Default

Still think rap battles for FTE best option.
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-19-2022, 01:44 AM
Bardp1999 Bardp1999 is offline
Planar Protector

Bardp1999's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Maceland
Posts: 1,418
Default

Problem: No life Neckbeards get super mad when they waste incredible amounts of time trying to secure pixels and end up failing

Solution: uninstall
__________________
Forum Quest
Spyder73 (BANNED)
NecroP1999 (BANNED)
Frostbane Wolfeye - Green99 - 54 Shaman
Cruetraxa Macequest - Green99 - 60 Necromancer
Snowleopard Wu'Tong - Green99 - 60 Monk
Lobsterhands - Green99 - 55 Cleric
#FreeWuTang
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-19-2022, 03:21 AM
Flyrr Flyrr is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Apr 2016
Posts: 154
Default

Great post there smashh, always showing Riot's true colors. If you can't win, change the game. Nevermind getting better at it
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-19-2022, 03:29 AM
hotkarlmarxbros hotkarlmarxbros is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flyrr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Great post there smashh, always showing Riot's true colors. If you can't win, change the game. Nevermind getting better at it
bro you are dyslexic, everybody knows you didnt read more than a sentence of that. congrats project lightning or any other display of literacy that would embarrass even a third grader much less an adult. its time to let the people capable of reading the thread discuss the issues described.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-19-2022, 03:52 AM
Viscere Viscere is offline
Sarnak

Viscere's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 245
Default

Your guild is dead and you are unable to compete on 75% of the content, it is only normal that you attempt to lobby for free pixels and are locked with a carebear / victim attitude

/thread
__________________
https://imgur.com/a/pb0q0W1
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-19-2022, 04:00 AM
hotkarlmarxbros hotkarlmarxbros is offline
Kobold


Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 121
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viscere [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Your guild is dead and you are unable to compete on 75% of the content, it is only normal that you attempt to lobby for free pixels and are locked with a carebear / victim attitude

/thread
You've never competed for anything, you're a warmbody that barely raids anyway, nobody expects you to understand that the way your 'not dead' guild got pixels was cheating. You're bad at eq, you're bad at rnf, and nobody would miss you if you left either.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-19-2022, 04:34 AM
Viscere Viscere is offline
Sarnak

Viscere's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 245
Default

I pulled a sensitive string it seems
__________________
https://imgur.com/a/pb0q0W1
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-19-2022, 04:36 AM
Slippy Slippy is offline
Large Rat


Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 7
Default

This is a lot to read, these all can be simplified.

Just ask for the solution to your 1st problem that only those guilds that participated in the draft / those that can kill vindi should be able to roll. GMs don't even need to agree to that, it can be a player agreement. If some new alliance wants to roll, make sure they aren't wasting time being dipshits and have their alliance kill vindi to prove it.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-19-2022, 06:14 AM
18120 18120 is offline
Orc


Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 41
Default

Vanq still super mad they got caught cheating.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:16 PM.


Everquest is a registered trademark of Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Project 1999 is not associated or affiliated in any way with Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.