Monk 2hb trick (with epic)

[Troxx]

So I've been experimenting with a strategy I read about. I have an IFS that I carry around for mobs with dmg shields and for riposte disc. Usually I use epic/SoS solo or grouping. The strat involves using IFS and unequipping to use offhand epic hit then re-equipping. At first I thought this would only be viable if I very obsessively timed the IFS swap in/out, but to be honest simply taking a more relaxed approach it seems to beat my epic/SoS combo.

Epic/epic is worse than Epic/SoS, but not by a lot.

IFS for a primary ratio (if you could offhand as well) is nuts. Tossing the IFS in for a quick 2hb single/double attack then quickly popping it back in primary effectively gives me a near permanent offhand 9/16 with an every so often 38/40 primary single double ... and probably 2/3 of the time I'm just dual wielding 9/16s. I know with perfect timing it'd probably work best if I swung my IFS every time I could, but that's too much work.

Thoughts? IFS seems to be ideal for this as it has a 40 delay and a big ass whopping hit.

I haven't parsed it, but like I said it certainly feels like mobs are dropping much faster solo, and I lose a lower percentage of my health per mob, thus decreasing down time.

[Troxx]

The more I mess around with it the more I like it.

Ever time I'm slow to swap in IFS the delay for 2hb is 16 (before haste/epic/etc) so swapping it in casually still works. It basically works out to epic/epic with bonus damage every time I equip the IFS. If I do so at a very relaxed pace it seems to out-damage epic/SoS by a reasonable margin, and fewer ripostes (and my ripostes are more powerful) to boot. The more intense I am with swapping it in, the larger the bonuses.

The Duxa UI helps having that readily available without inventory screen up. Neat trick, it seems to work very nicely!

This would not be as efficient pre-epic as you have to swap more gear in/out. Pre-epic though, all monks should carry an IFS. If you don't have epic but do have a Tstaff, sell the staff to finance the epic.

[Man0warr]

Of course you are going to lose less health using a 2h while solo - less ripostes and all that.

I tried this trick swapping between bare hands and Shovel of the Harvest and parsed it a dozen times or so vs HoT trash (which takes a few minutes to kill) and it was either not noticeable or just Shovel won out. It's not that easy to trick the delay.

[jpetrick]

Originally Posted by jpetrick [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DPS FORMULA
=((DMG*2)+DMG BONUS)/DLY

Level 60 Damage Bonus 1Hand = 11
Level 60 Damage Bonus 2Hand = 17

TOTAL DMG for Dual Wield
=Primary DPS+(Secondary DPS*0.78)
[.78 is used because the chance for dual wield is 78% at max skill]

My math assumes that you are able to weapon swap perfectly, so there is slightly less damage with a 2hander if you weapon swap poorly.

T-Staff w/ Weapon swap
Tranquil Staff DPS 2.5
+ Epic Fist (Offhand) 1.09
Total DPS = 3.3502 (Triple attack not yet in game & no Hundred Blows proc factored in)

Epic Fist 1.76
Scepter of Mastery (Offhand) 1.238
Total DPS = 2.725

Wu's Fist of Mastery 1.95
Wu's Fist of Mastery (Offhand) 1.45
Total DPS = 3.211

Bo Staff of Trorsmang 2.77
+ Epic Fist (Offhand) 1.09
Total DPS = 3.62

Here is the DPS with your 13/20 suggested weapons
13/20 Mainhand 1.85
13/20 Offhand 1.3
Total DPS = 2.864

And just for fun:
Gharn's Rock of Smashing 2.26
Wurmscale Fistwraps (Offhand) 1.55
Total DPS = 3.469 (No Strike of the Chosen proc included)

Abashi's Rod of Disempowerment 3.23
+ Epic Fist (Offhand) 1.09
Total DPS = 4.0835 (Triple attack not yet in game)

Does Gharn's proc 80 point life tap beat out Abashi's when weapon swapping? That I don't know.
At 255 dex you will average 1 proc every 20 seconds. My guess is that Abashi's is still better.

Weapon swapping with IFS will be 3.2002 DPS

IFS Mainhand = 2.35
Epic Fist Offhand = 1.09

(((2.35 + (1.09 x .78))) = 3.2002

Weapon swapping is usually better than using 1 handers. It is very easy to get the timing down (I play on 90-110 ping and I have a near perfect success rate), Manowarr must play on an extremely high ping if he has issues
weapon swapping.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Of course you are going to lose less health using a 2h while solo - less ripostes and all that.

Fights are shorter than just using IFS alone though, and I end the fights with lower percentage of health on average using JUST IFS compared to Epic/SoS due to the longer kill time, and noticably lower health than swapping IFS in/out and spending a good 2/3 of the time just riding epic/epic damage output.

Like I said, I dont even bother to perfectly time it. I swap in IFS very briefly after a few seconds of chain epic fist rounds and it certainly feels a lot stronger dps-wise.

Soloing with nothing but a fungi in KC, I'm using less bandages and spending less time between fights (and faster fights).

The only drawback I've found thus far is that it's a bit labor-intensive and not nearly as relaxed as just fire/forget autoattacking with a kick bound to epic click on refresh.

[Troxx]

Yep, after a more exhaustive solo and duo session I can confirm that with epic and IFS compared to standard epic/SoS combo:

-assuming epic/epic is default, swapping in IFS for a quick round then back out
-proportional to how often you time the swap in/out (and comparing directly to epis/SoS) you will see ....
-more damage
-less ripostes

Win!

You really do need epic to make this work though. It's way too cumbersome to try and do this swapping between 2 1handers and the IFS. You don't have to be too anal doing this either, just make sure you pop the IFS <<OUT>> as soon as you swing your 2hb to maximize things. Worst case scenario you spend too much time epic/epic ... which isn't terribly worse than epic/SoS to begin with. The more intense you are with swapping it in, the higher the dps output. Once you start swinging your primary/secondary 9/16 epic fists the delay before your next 2hb swing is only 16 (pre-haste) so there's not a long wait once you pop it in before you swing and can pop it back out.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I tried this trick swapping between bare hands and Shovel of the Harvest and parsed it a dozen times or so vs HoT trash (which takes a few minutes to kill) and it was either not noticeable or just Shovel won out. It's not that easy to trick the delay.

Bear in mind that Shovel by itself is or should be better dps than any of the weapons we're talking about. If you're not perfect swapping in/out the Shovel you will end up only breaking even or doing worse than just keeping Shovel equipped. It's in a tier of weaponry that goes beyond this conversation.

http://wiki.project1999.com/Shovel_of_the_Harvest

50/43 is will be considerably better damage by itself than Epic, SoS, Tstaff, IFS, or any combination thereof. If you're not perfect swapping the shovel in/out to capitalize on it's EVERY swing capability, it's easy to appreciate how with this weapon it's totally not worth it. Like I said, it's in a tier of weaponry that goes beyond this conversation. If I had the shovel, I'd just keep it equipped 24/7 and forget about any other weapons or fancy swaps.

Comparing the dps of 3 setups below:

Epic/SoS
Epic/epic
IFS

Epic/SoS > Epic/epic > IFS

With swapping ...

IFS/Swap > Epic/SoS > Epic/Epic

I'd argue the juice isn't worth the squeeze in a good 4-6 man group.

Duo, marginally worth it ... but paired up with a shaman I'd honestly prefer to be lazy.

Solo it is totally worth it. I have a fungi and modestly good gear in most other slots. Solo in KC at level 56, dog sentries (doesn't matter if dark blue or green) are easy to solo if I start at > 70% health. Drolvarg Guardians can be a PITA as can Skeletal Lookouts/Guardians - even with mend up. With the IFS alone I take less damage over time per second but the fight lasts sufficiently long(er) enough that using it over Epic/SoS isn't worth it. I end up taking less total damage per fight by ending the fight sooner with dual wield. Epic/SoS is or has been the bread and butter, but I usually have to burn mend on these harder mobs. With the swap technique I can reliably drop Drolvarg Guards (they run at 20%) without using mend. For the skeletons it's still luck as they don't run, but I burn mend a lot less now and almost never have to give up and flop (where before this was a real risk while solo and without buffs) even with mend.

For the monk that happens to have epic but is very tight on cash ... the SoS you could easily bail on in lieu of the IFS (which you will want anyways for damage shields).

Comparing IFS vs Tstaff for this technique, I'd argue the IFS will net more damage as it's delay is a lot more forgiving if you're not perfect about swapping in and out. Swapping in/out at 40 delay is a lot less labor intensive than at delay 30. You could argue the proc on Tstaff would still make it the favorite ... but it's so expensive that unless you're loaded on cash, there's no point (Epic/SoS will beat it toe to toe almost every time).

PS: Quick question for Man0warr --> how does shovel average dps compare with other comparable raid level 1handers for dps? As good? Slightly worse?

[jpetrick]

Wait. Am I understanding you correctly that you are swapping in the IFS and letting yourself get more epic attacks than IFS attacks? IE: you keep your hands empty and swap in IFS then take it out?


Also Epic/SoS is worse than T-staff when weapon swapping. My math and personal parses prove this.

[Man0warr]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

PS: Quick question for Man0warr --> how does shovel average dps compare with other comparable raid level 1handers for dps? As good? Slightly worse?

No idea, as I don't have access to comparable raid level 1-handers. I got the shovel before Forsaken/Awakened/Rampage clamped down on all ToV raid bosses - earlier on BDA got a lot of Telk/Gozzrem kills.

Outside of Wu Fists from sky, there just aren't any comparable one-handers outside of NToV/Sleepers/Tunare.

The Shovel parses around ~85-90 dps (max hit just over 300 with raid buffs), but it's a bad option for high AC targets like Dain and some Kael targets as it hits for it's lower range too often. I imagine when they patch in delay-based damage bonus to 2-handers in the October patch it will be much better.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by jpetrick [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Wait. Am I understanding you correctly that you are swapping in the IFS and letting yourself get more epic attacks than IFS attacks? IE: you keep your hands empty and swap in IFS then take it out?


Also Epic/SoS is worse than T-staff when weapon swapping. My math and personal parses prove this.

The most efficient thing would to swap in IFS as soon as the delay cooldown is up. That's pretty labor intensive so I've been popping IFS in/out and let time epic go back into full quad mode before popping IFS back in. It's less dps that way but also a lot less clicks and attention required while still being more dps than raw dual wield with epic/SoS.

Tstaff would be more dps than IFS, but to maximize it you'd have to click/swap 25-30% compared to IFS more frequently ... Which is a pain.

I won a T Staff but sold it. For its plat value and the upgrades it could buy ... I was not impressed with the weapon (and it was heavy).