"Spyware" dll in P99's patch files. - Page 10

Wiltan · #91 11-19-2022, 04:30 AM

I'm not going to speak to the legalities of having software that "spies" for potential cheat applications that may or may not have more insight into what else you do on your computer, because that varies by state/country. Nor am I going to speak to the ethics of using a tool to watch for cheating that has potential to see more than just that, because obviously most of us have made our peace with that ages ago.

What I will say is that there are hundreds of people on each of two servers (and tens of people on a third) at any given time, so probably thousands of active users overall. P99 is a volunteer-run organization with limited resources and only a handful of active staff, so it is extremely unrealistic that they have the human bandwidth nor infrastructure to monitor what everyone is doing on their computers outside of flagging the hashes of certain apps (as someone else explained already very nicely). It would take at least hundreds of people to watch what everyone is doing on their computers. It would take petabytes of storage to even list the titles all the open windows on everyone's computers on every minute they're playing. In short, even if this massive invasion of privacy you're worried about is possible from a technical standpoint, it's not realistically possible from a resource standpoint.

As for warning you about this, it's at least somewhat covered here in
https://wiki.project1999.com/Players...rd-Party_Tools - specifically "Use of any third-party programs will be detected and will result in the permanent banning of your account(s)."

They've warned you they're detecting stuff on your computer.

Since you insist that's all you're asking them to do, asked and answered.

Goldknyght · #92 11-19-2022, 04:45 AM

TRACK ME P99 and guess what ur gonna have FBI problems not oh lets send him a babyshark promo problem. no one is tracking u. and lets just play devils advocate. lets say they are tracking us wanting our data. peak p99 traffic is 2000 at best. so idk i think u might want to have a better argument just cuz u got banned for cheating. there is no dollars here for them to get. FFS

Gooch · #93 11-19-2022, 05:16 AM

I keep a window of midget porn open just for the admins.

Uthgaard · #94 11-19-2022, 10:47 AM

Nobody can even see what's in your browsers, that's just a dumb guy making dumb hypotheticals.

But also nobody is gonna go into extreme details at any software company about how their cheat/abuse detection algorithms do work, and just help people evade them.

Calmethar · #95 11-19-2022, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wiltan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not going to speak to the legalities of having software that "spies" for potential cheat applications that may or may not have more insight into what else you do on your computer, because that varies by state/country. Nor am I going to speak to the ethics of using a tool to watch for cheating that has potential to see more than just that, because obviously most of us have made our peace with that ages ago.

What I will say is that there are hundreds of people on each of two servers (and tens of people on a third) at any given time, so probably thousands of active users overall. P99 is a volunteer-run organization with limited resources and only a handful of active staff, so it is extremely unrealistic that they have the human bandwidth nor infrastructure to monitor what everyone is doing on their computers outside of flagging the hashes of certain apps (as someone else explained already very nicely). It would take at least hundreds of people to watch what everyone is doing on their computers. It would take petabytes of storage to even list the titles all the open windows on everyone's computers on every minute they're playing. In short, even if this massive invasion of privacy you're worried about is possible from a technical standpoint, it's not realistically possible from a resource standpoint.

As for warning you about this, it's at least somewhat covered here in
https://wiki.project1999.com/Players...rd-Party_Tools - specifically "Use of any third-party programs will be detected and will result in the permanent banning of your account(s)."

They've warned you they're detecting stuff on your computer.

Since you insist that's all you're asking them to do, asked and answered.

Oh, them trolls ;-)

"The wiki is player maintained, and not supported by the Project 1999 Staff."

Calmethar · #96 11-19-2022, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by azxten [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Anyway...

Personally I think they should have a statement about this functionality, require people to agree to it when creating an account, and this statement should explain how that personal information is being handled. I was curious so read a bit of GDPR to see how it would apply to P99 but as far as I can tell P99 isn't a business. It's an entity which under GDPR entities are only required to comply if they are based in the EU. One thing I found that is interesting was some laws have defined protected personal information as also being aggregate non-identifying personal information if collected on more than 1000 different entities. From a project perspective what is being done is in fact risky because there is a very remote chance that someone's computer is named "bobsmithat123stidaho" and let's say they have a peculiar taste in porn and a staff member has this data from window titles and puts it out there. That person begins to have standing to sue and with actual damages. The data could be obtained by a malicious actor for example it doesn't have to be the staff intentionally using it for bad reasons. In this case P99 would almost definitely be in big trouble. No one agreed to this, they didn't disclose it officially, in this instance it was enough information to identify an individual, and it caused damages. Totally remote never going to happen kind of thing but in reality these things happen sometimes.

Of course these concepts are alien to most people. The risk is on the staff and it's their decision. I see little downside though. It's funny people would actively resist the idea that someone collecting personal information without your consent probably should stop doing that. Rogean said, "If you think what we're doing is bad you should see the other anti-cheat systems" referring to things like EAC and so on. The problem with that is those run with user consent via an agreement obtained duration installation. No such agreement exists for P99 regarding their data collection or usage.

Why resist doing this? It seems immature to me but my mindset is very corporate and seeks to avoid unnecessary risks. My perception is there is concern that if this was disclosed it would threaten growth, weaken the protection, or it's "hard" to implement properly since P99 logins are tied into EQEmu. You can make an EQEmu account without agreeing to anything from P99. The license.txt file has a disclaimer about this but the problem is you don't have to agree to this to play on P99. It's like if you signed up for a Facebook account and after you were already logged in and using the product they E-mailed you a list of rules and described how they're harvesting your personal data. That won't hold up in court.

Oh also since staff has commented on this they're now "knowingly" doing what they're doing in spite of people bringing these issues to their attention. Not even trying to be a dick I'd fix this up if I was in charge and this is how it is. Of course they could be comparing window titles on the client side and only sending a detection flag. Your computer name could be a one way hash for purposes of detecting boxing. There are a lot of assumptions about what is actually collected but then this gets into privacy laws about "processing" personal information as well.

Quite spot on. Why indeed not just inform the users. But as we clearly see from Rogean's weak answers, they'll rather try to downplay the fact that they're even doing it, instead of just posting a big fat sign right next to the "patch files" and let everyone know what they're actually "agreeing" to by playing on "Project 1999".

"The DLL gets flagged by Antiviruses because it uses obfuscation technologies."

"Obfuscation technologies", haha, still cracks me up ;-p

Uthgaard · #97 11-19-2022, 11:17 AM

I often find that folks who try to be young lawyers tend to make some very big mistakes when they think they have some leverage, particularly in the areas of federal extortion law, and laws regarding implied threats of lawsuits, especially when made interstate (such as telling them how they should spend their money while alleging illegal activity).

If someone thinks they have knowledge of illegal activity (mistaken or otherwise) the only appropriate recourse is to use the proper channels. Not linger around their public fora, attempting to illegally intimidate with said "information".

Certainly the dumbest possible thing that person could do would be to repeatedly return, digging the hole deeper and building that case via threatening interstate wire communications.

If they were to spend money on an attorney, there's a high chance that the actual outcome would be a referral for prosecution letter detailing that person's actions to a US attorney.

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