Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

and when you have 188seconds (30 ticks) seconds to cannibalize 1400hp (10 casts) ...

it is not an issue

Agreed, on a long enough time period it isn't a problem, like the specific example you gave. But sometimes being able to get more mana back in a short period is important too, like if you are low on mana for whatever reason.

You still didn't address the "300 mana surplus" mistake you made here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430 , which is a pretty big mistake.

- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)
- 175 Mana spent on Chloroblast for pet to counter 385 damage above. Pet is at -100 HP after the fight.

Total HP Gained: 1396
Total Mana Spent: 838
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds

This is the actual mana spent per fight, and you would be at -84 HP and -18 mana assuming you used Cannibalize 4. Your pet would be at -100 HP too after Chloroblast.

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=476 - This shows the JBB Shaman spending 188 seconds per fight as well.

Either you add 6 seconds to the recovery time on the DoT Shaman, making it 196 seconds for the DoTing Shaman vs. 188 seconds for the JBB Shaman, or you allow the JBB Shaman to pull 1 tick earlier by conceding that it is fine to pull while not at 100% HP/Mana, and then it is 188 seconds for the DoTing Shaman vs. 182 seconds for the JBB Shaman.

Troxx is still wrong, JBB is indeed a more efficient leveling tool from 45-60 when compared to root rotting without Epic, even when comparing an Ogre to an Iksar.

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You still didn't address the "300 mana surplus" mistake you made here https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430 , which is a pretty big mistake.

Except I did:

Instead of 720 surplus mana from Canni III, You're looking at ~800 mana from Canni IV. This leaves the 58 shaman not using JBB with closer to 300 mana surplus net at the end of the fight @ 188 seconds. This is more than enough to compensate for the slow/root from each fight and more or less all buff refreshes required over the course of the xp session (pet haste/regen, self regen, etc).

If you subtract 125 mana from the slow and 30 from the root - that leaves you with 145 mana surplus per mob pull. Regen lasts nearly 20 minutes (just under 19 at 58). If it takes you 30 seconds to pull a new mob that's 3.6 minutes per kill shot. That's over 5 kills per 19 minutes. If each kill gives you 145 mana surplus --- that's 725 mana. 2 casts of regrowth is 600 mana (before specialization kicks in), leaving 125 mana to refresh haste. While this does admittedly leave you with a napkin math deficit as the celerity costs 185 mana and only lasts 16 minutes, it also is still ignoring the 30 seconds of pulling x 5 which gives you an additional 15+15+10 hp/tick you've got standing/running/pulling. That's 25 'pulling' ticks giving you another 1000hp of passive regen which can then be converted to another 550 mana recovered via Canni during the non-active combat time.

This is the benefit of not being OCD about starting/finishing fights at 100% health. I always like to stay under 100% so that I can maximally benefit from regen when I'm doing full on efficiency mode. I try never to be at 100% health unless I'm also at 100% mana. In this type of solo, you'll never realistically be at 100% of either. It's a fun juggling game and one of the things I appreciate about the class.

Point is you save mana per mob such that it covers all of your overhead in terms of regen refreshes, minor buffs, hastes and helps to offset any losses from resists or fizzles. And remember, the resists will affect both shaman's more or less to the same degree. Every resist you get on JBB is >30 dps lost for that unit time spent casting. Partial resists on JBB = lost dps. Partial resists on the DD component of the Dots is fairly negligible.

And if you look at post:

https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=430

You will see that, in a very anticipatory manner, I credited the shaman 28 meditation ticks, not 31.333 ticks.. I already accounted for this both in the hp recovered (sitting vs standing racial regen) and in the number of mana ticks hit.

1 tick for each dot cost. Wait for tick. Cast dot (opportunity cost 1 tick) - sit. 2x EB and 1x Disease dot. I mean I guess we could wiggle on whether the shaman misses 3 ticks or 4 (compensate for root). Alternately you could admit that you are casting that first dot before the mob is on top of you. Maybe it hits before the mob reaches you, may be it does not. Regardless ... then you root and back up.

And ... despite all of the above ... I have actually done both. I had a JBB until ~56. I was accustomed to using JBB spam. I know precisely how good it is/was. I started playing around with an alternative and realized that I was killing more mobs per unit time by not using my JBB at all - it's why I sold it.

That was this, this is now. Disease counters and poison counter threat is now completely scalped. E-bolt, Bane, Plague etc used to generate a ton of threat per cast. Now? Very anemic threat.

For the modern leveling shaman, they don't have to deal with the same issue with pet holding or not holding aggro that I did. I got by just fine with the 30 mana sub 1-minute root under the old rule set. Under the current rule set, pet holding aggro is comparatively trivial.

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TLDR: JBB is an overpowered tool for PLing yourself 45-51. It is a good/strong tool in your early 50s. By 52 you have regrowth and the dynamic starts to shift. By 55 the nail in the coffin is the 55 pet. It does a lot more damage, takes a lot less damage and is generally beefy enough that it is your effective tank that requires nothing more than a Togors slow, a regrowth, and a rare spot heal. Remember that while you are pulling that pet continues to regen 45hp/tick until the next time it's getting hit. We both know it is good enough to tank slowed Cliff golems. Xp trash is trivial for it to tank.

After 55, JBB is a cute toy. Not useless. Still a viable way of soloing, but it is no longer the best way of doing so.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Except I did:
If you subtract 125 mana from the slow and 30 from the root

Togor's Insects costs 175 mana. https://wiki.project1999.com/Togor%27s_Insects You are also ignoring the mana cost for casting Regen on your pet, the JBB Shaman isn't doing that. That is another 69 mana per fight. So already you just ignoring 119 mana.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I credited the shaman 28 meditation ticks, not 31.333 ticks.

You need to subtract 5 ticks. You cannot assume you will hit the server ticks on Slow or Root, because combat is dynamic. If you wait for the server tick to cast your root, you may take damage from the mob, which would be counted anyway. Remember I am being generous and assuming the Iksar shaman is missing zero server ticks to begin with, which is already unrealistic.

You still haven't shown the flaw in this calculation:

- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)
- 175 Mana spent on Chloroblast for pet to counter 385 damage above. Pet is at -100 HP after the fight.

Total HP Gained: 1396
Total Mana Spent: 838
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds

[Troxx]

Did you not read my other post? I was compensating for the regens already. You are correct that I neglected 50 from the Togors.

So 95 mana per mob. 5 mobs per regrowth refresh = 95 mana per mob fight x5 and 500 mana from the regen used to canni for the 30 seconds spent pulling each of those 5 mobs all within the time it takes to need refresh regen.

(95x5) + 550 = 1025 mana surplus between the times refresh needs to be refreshed. Remember I’m out on a second pull at 189 seconds without a shaman deficit. At 189 seconds you’re still ~ 50 seconds from being HP neutral

Regrowth x2 = 600 mana - 425 left over to keep haste up at 185 per 16 minutes and any other minor buffs or heals.

On the expenditure front we are ignoring specialist in Alteration so all your slows, hastes, regens, roots save a flat 12% in mana preservation- none of our calculations have accounted for that.

So the root/dot pet tank shaman is at a point of near neutral with a mana surplus but pet down some hp and ready to start next pull in 188sec…

Vs the JBB shaman who’s gonna be able to full reach a neutral state every > 230 seconds thinking about starting that next pull

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I really do hate napkin math but unfortunately it seems to be the only language DSM speaks. It does not account for all the other wild card variables. The dotting shaman could get unlucky with fizzles/resists. The JBB shaman can get unlucky with resists. The mob could get lucky and do a lot more than 10dps slowed … or do less.

But I have played both ways.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Specialization saves 30 mana per regrowth cast. We still need to take into account regrowths sitting tick loss, as it is a 6 second cast time. You save 7 mana per encounter, so 62 instead of 69. You would save 18 mana from the heal, so you are still at -84 HP after using Canni 4, and your pet is still at -100 HP.

Specialization reduces the Slow/Root cost of both thr JBB Shaman and the DoT Shaman, so they both save the time there.

If the DoT Shaman can start another pull at -84 HP with their pet at -100 HP the JBB Shaman can start another pull at -150 HP. You cannot pad the JBB shamans recovery time in a silly attempt to win. You cannot claim the Shaman should never be at 100% HP while also forcing the JBB Shaman to be at 100% HP. The JBB Shaman is also pulling after 188 seconds, not the over 200 seconds you keep padding.

The DoTing Shaman is affected more by the wild card variables, which you keep ignoring. I take them into consideration, you just keep not reading it.

[Troxx]

You’re grasping at straws at this point. Small enough variables that won’t have an impact on the outcome.


I’m happy to have shown you how to properly napkin math. This is a stark improvement over assuming 2 shamans will have 30 minutes of uptime and 30 minutes of downtime. The JBB shaman will have a lot of down/recover time so it makes sense that this is the position you defaulted to.

The shaman playing smartly without JBB isn’t going to need all that down time.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You’re grasping at straws at this point. Small enough variables that won’t have an impact on the outcome.


I’m happy to have shown you how to properly napkin math. This is a stark improvement over assuming 2 shamans will have 30 minutes of uptime and 30 minutes of downtime. The JBB shaman will have a lot of down/recover time so it makes sense that this is the position you defaulted to.

The shaman playing smartly without JBB isn’t going to need all that down time.

The only person grasping at straws is yourself. You claim the Shaman shouldn't be at 100% HP, and then force the JBB Shaman to recover to 100% to pad recovery time. I am sorry, you still are wrong. You also keep ignoring the fact that thr DoTing shaman has more RnG bad luck.

[Ripqozko]

This is what kittens have become, full of DSM

[Toxigen]

me checking on this thread this weekend:

[Troxx]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only person grasping at straws is yourself. You claim the Shaman shouldn't be at 100% HP, and then force the JBB Shaman to recover to 100% to pad recovery time. I am sorry, you still are wrong. You also keep ignoring the fact that thr DoTing shaman has more RnG bad luck.

I never said the JBB shaman had to be at 100% health. We’re talking reaching a point of being neutral. Recovering that which you lost/spent during the fight itself. If you have 80% health when you start a fight (let’s say 2000/2500hp self buffed). Your point of neutrality is once, after the fight is over, you’re up to 2000hp again. The same for relative mana. I don't ever routinely advocate for a Shaman sitting at 100% health - that's just wasted potential.

The JBB shaman will end the fight with less mana and about 500hp less than they started with - more than a minute of sitting on their butt if they are a troll/iksar and even longer as an Ogre.

The non-JBB shaman would end a fight they started at 2000/2500 HP at 3400/2500hp … except they converted that hp regenerated back into mana (back to 2000/2500) and ended up with 100 extra mana than they started the fight with - accounting for all spells they cast during the fight. Ending the fight at 2k hp instead of 2.5, they continue to efficiently tap into that regen while they pull the next - no waste.