Iksar Shaman - Solo Challenges?

[Duik]

At this point the water is so muddy only an axolotl can see the answer. So iksar wins.
Fuck im good.

[Infectious]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Incorrect. Troxx is the one who did that, by pretending that he didn't claim earlier that Shamans should never be at 100% HP and Mana before they get Torpor. This is correct, but he cannot then turn around and claim a JBB Shaman who is leveling must sit and wait to recover until 100% HP when they have Regrowth + Fungi Tunic, which is 33 HP per tick standing. He is contradicting himself to pad for time, because he cannot admit when he is wrong. Troxx also continues to completely ignore root breaks, spell resists, missing sitting ticks in combat, and occasional damage taken by the DoTing Shaman, which increases their overall time too. He cannot simply assume the worst case for JBB Shamans, while assuming the best case for DoTing Shamans.

Just to put the final nail on the coffin, I'll adjust this a bit to ensure Troxx doesn't try and weasel his way out. When I was in PoM Rat maze I never needed to actually use a root on occasion to heal, as the pull times allowed me to fully recover between fights.

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 30 Mana spent on 1x root to prevent 80-160 damage, depending on if JBB breaks root or not. Average of 120 HP saved. It is 80-160 because each cast of JBB is 8 seconds, so you won't get the attempted DD break until it lands. You could save more HP per battle as well if you get lucky, but I'll just ignore that for argument's sake.

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 189
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 56 seconds to recover 189 mana and 324 HP.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of HP while pulling. Shaman is down 150 HP, which is recoverable in 4 ticks while pulling. This is a very reasonable pull time. Shamans do not want to be at 100% HP/Mana pre Torpor. Since Shamans are still recovering 1 mana per tick while standing, you will get enough mana for occasional roots when you need to recover a bit more.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 75 Mana spent on Chloroblasting the pet every other fight
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 738
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 738 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained.

188 Seconds per encounter, regenerating the last bit of pet HP while pulling. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing sitting ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar will take damage occasionally from root breaks as well, which isn't taken into account in the math above. The Iksar Shaman also has to constantly hit every single sitting server tick, or they will lose efficiency.

This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The simplified playstyle of the JBB Shaman gives you numerous bonuses, while not detracting at all from kill speed. You end up saving more mana and time in the long run from not having to worry about DoTs being resisted, root breaking and taking damage, missing sitting server ticks in combat, etc.

Claiming JBB is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is clearly nonsense, and Troxx needs to stop posting his incorrect idea and admit he is wrong.

Math doesn't show mobs hp regen. Only 1 root break, on a mob with 7k hp and casting the bracer 20+ times?

Let's edit that post another 2-3 times til we get it right. Troll!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Infectious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Math doesn't show mobs hp regen. Only 1 root break, on a mob with 7k hp and casting the bracer 20+ times?

I've brought up these points, and they are all a problem for the DoTing Shaman, not the JBB Shaman. That is why JBB ends up being better.

1. When it comes to mob regen, JBB spamming is higher DPS on average than the DoTing strategy. Chances are the fight would last longer on the DoTing Shaman's side if mob regen did end up extending the fight for a few seconds. The fight is longer (more regen occurs), and all of the DoT's would have worn off in Troxx's example by the end. If they needed to cast another damage spell to speed up the fight, then they would also have some extra recovery time at the end.

2. I agree root breaks are a problem. I've said so many times, even in the post you quoted lol. That is why the JBB Shaman only assumed that the root would last 8-16 seconds at best. The only side ignoring root breaks is Troxx, because he wants to make root rotting look better. His assumption is that root never breaks and damage is never taken from a root break, which is obviously incorrect. This would slow down the DoTing Shaman, while not affecting the JBB Shaman. The JBB Shaman does not need to root every fight. I just threw it in every fight to show Troxx that you can significantly reduce the remaining damage per fight if needed. Personally I never needed to use root and pet tanking to recover after a fight in PoM rat maze. I only used root for parking adds away from me.

3. Spell resists are low on trash mobs. You don't even need to malo them. An occasional resist on JBB is really not a big deal. You just need to spend 8 more seconds casting it. Conversely, getting a resist on a DoT means you are down a full 300 mana, and now need to spend extra recovery time in-between fights. They would need to spend 6 seconds casting the DoT again, plus recovering the 300 mana, which takes longer. This again slows down the DoT Shaman.

As of this post: https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...&postcount=465 - Troxx is still wrong, even after all the back and forth. JBB is better than root rotting from 45-60 on all shaman races that can use it. Ogres will still level faster from 45-60 with it than an Iksar would leveling from 45-60 with root/rotting and without Epic.

Hopefully he will finally admit he is wrong about something.

[Duik]

Lmfao.
Discretely Shifting Messages quite a few times I see. I didnt notice you (did it) until troxx mentioned it 76 pages back.
Just cursory glances i noticed edits at 12:10pm and 12:12pm Aussie Eastern Daylight Savings Time. (Shared with Vladivostok and Guam of all places) .
Maybe use the time you edit to read and re read ya posts to not look so befuddled? I dunno. Also editing posts is fine but you do infact do it EVERY FUCKING TIME.
Are you ok? Like really?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Duik [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lmfao.
Discretely Shifting Messages quite a few times I see. I didnt notice you (did it) until troxx mentioned it 76 pages back.
Just cursory glances i noticed edits at 12:10pm and 12:12pm Aussie Eastern Daylight Savings Time. (Shared with Vladivostok and Guam of all places) .
Maybe use the time you edit to read and re read ya posts to not look so befuddled? I dunno. Also editing posts is fine but you do infact do it EVERY FUCKING TIME.
Are you ok? Like really?

If trolls stopped trolling and lying about what I've said in the past, I wouldn't need to edit my posts.

Stop the trolling, and I will stop the editing!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

One more nail in the coffin.

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Admittedly, in my calculations the pet remains down 470hp which would take 11 further ticks (66 seconds) to fully recover to neutral ground but the troll/iksar had a net positive in mana and could cover that gap with a single cast of [chloroblast].

You are ready to go and can toss a chloroblast on your pet to have the pet “broken even” on health.

Adjusting the calculations to take into account using 1x Chloroblast on the pet every time:

Criteria
=========
1. Two Level 58 Shamans. One is an Iksar root/rotting, the other is an Ogre with JBB.
2. Mob does 10 DPS while slowed with Togor's Insects.
3. 7000 HP mob, A Ratfink from PoM Rat Maze.
4. Both Shamans have Fungi Tunic.
5. Both Shamans have Regrowth on themselves, and Haste on their Pets.

Ogre with JBB
=============
- JBB (32.8 DPS) + Hasted Pet (17 DPS) + Blight, Hammer of the Scourge weapon proc (2.2 DPS) = 53 DPS
- 726 HP recovered from Standing Regen (3 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 22 ticks
- 1320 damage taken from face tanking (10 DPS)
- 22 Mana recovered from Standing Regen (1 Mana) over 22 ticks
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 6 Mana spent on overhead from casting Mortal Deftness 1x per hour
- 30 Mana spent on 1x root to prevent 80-160 damage, depending on if JBB breaks root or not. Average of 120 HP saved. It is 80-160 because each cast of JBB is 8 seconds, so you won't get the attempted DD break until it lands. You could save more HP per battle as well if you get lucky, but I'll just ignore that for argument's sake.

Total HP Spent: 474
Total Mana Spent: 189
Total Fight Time: 132 seconds
Total Meditation Time after combat: 56 seconds to recover 189 mana and 324 HP.

188 Seconds per encounter, Shaman is down 150 HP, which is recoverable in 4 ticks while pulling. This is a very reasonable pull time. Shamans do not want to be at 100% HP/Mana pre Torpor. Since Shamans are still recovering 1 mana per tick while standing, you will get enough mana for occasional roots when you need to recover a bit more.

Iksar without JBB using root/rotting
=============
- 2x Envenomed Bolt (2665 Damage) + 1x Plague (1270 Damage) + Hasted and Regened Pet (17 DPS) = ~37.2 DPS when factoring in DoTs will not be active for the full fight
- 1426 HP recovered from Sitting Regen (16 HP) + Fungi Tunic (15 HP) + Regrowth (15 HP) over 31 ticks
- 651 Mana recovered from Sitting Regen (21 Mana) over 31 ticks
- 640 Mana spent on 2x Envenomed Bolts
- 300 Mana spent on 1x Plague
- 175 Mana spent on 1x Togor's Insects
- 30 Mana spent on 1x Root
- 100 Mana and 30 HP spent due to losing 5 Sitting Regen ticks while casting the 5 spells above
- 69 Mana spent on overhead from casting Regen on Pet 4x per hour
- 485 damage taken to pet (1880 damage - 1395 regenerated from 45 HP a tick)
- 175 Mana spent on Chloroblast for pet to counter the damage above

Total HP Gained: 1456
Total Mana Spent: 838
Total Fight Time: 188 seconds
Total Recovery Time: 0 seconds, you can recover the 838 mana spent using the 1456 HP gained with only 150 damage taken from cannibalize.

188 Seconds per encounter, Shaman is down 148 HP and 20 mana by using Canni 3 2x to make up for the 96 mana not covered by the HP gained. This assumes no spell resists, root breaks, getting hit by the mob, or missing sitting ticks during combat.

The Iksar who is root/rotting has an increased opportunity cost in getting spell resists, as they are casting 3 high mana value spells per battle over the Ogre with JBB. JBB has a zero mana cost associated with it being resisted. The Iksar will take damage occasionally from root breaks as well, which isn't taken into account in the math above. The Iksar Shaman also has to constantly hit every single sitting server tick, or they will lose efficiency.

This is why an Ogre with JBB ends up beating out a root/rotting Iksar Shaman. The simplified playstyle of the JBB Shaman gives you numerous bonuses, while not detracting at all from kill speed. You end up saving more mana and time in the long run from not having to worry about DoTs being resisted, root breaking and taking damage, missing sitting server ticks in combat, etc.

Claiming JBB is only a good leveling tool from 45-51 is clearly nonsense, and Troxx needs to stop posting his incorrect idea and admit he is wrong.

[bcbrown]

Could you update the Scourge proc to 0.75 DPS? I can provide calculations if you'd like.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Could you update the Scourge proc to 0.75 DPS? I can provide calculations if you'd like.

Regardless of whether your calculation is correct, we can take a look. 51.55 DPS instead of 53 DPS would add 4 seconds to the fight, or 40 extra damage taken on the JBB Shaman.

Just so we do not quibble over a few points here and there, 2x Canni 3 only recovers 76 points of mana, so the DoT Shaman would also be down 20 mana, which is 40 HP converted. You would need to spend 6 seconds to meditate 1 extra tick to cover that, so you aren't gaining time either.

Of course we still aren't taking into account root breaks, root break damage, fizzles, spell resists, mob regen, etc. on the DoTing Shaman, which weakens them further.

Will you agree that Troxx is incorrect now?

[bcbrown]

You've shown that the expected time is almost identical. Root rotting will have more unlucky random bad luck. JBB will be significantly more expensive - plus the proc weapon and the dex gear.

Personally, if I could afford a JBB, I'd buy it, level myself up to the low 50s, then sell it when I could afford a fungi. If anyone wants to loan me a JBB for a month, I'd be happy to report back on my in-game conclusions.

If I had unlimited plat, yeah, I'd try both out and see what fits my playstyle. I've spoken before of my dislike of root rotting.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You've shown that the expected time is almost identical. Root rotting will have more unlucky random bad luck. JBB will be significantly more expensive - plus the proc weapon and the dex gear.

Personally, if I could afford a JBB, I'd buy it, level myself up to the low 50s, then sell it when I could afford a fungi. If anyone wants to loan me a JBB for a month, I'd be happy to report back on my in-game conclusions.

If I had unlimited plat, yeah, I'd try both out and see what fits my playstyle. I've spoken before of my dislike of root rotting.

With the bad luck the JBB ends up being faster. Saving mana and hp per hour over non JBB is going to be better. Remeber we are comparing a non-regen race to a regen-race too. Troll would be faster, not identical. Same with Barbarian, due to the xp bonus.

Lucky for you Shamans are great at farming plat. Making 60k by the time you get to your 50s is not difficult. Buy JBB, farm faster with it, buy fungi, use both to 60. Sell them both to get Torpor.