New Druid Advice from the experts

[Goregasmic]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

1. You can also always get 100% mob XP without Goblin Ring. Please stop saying Goblin Ring does anything to help with securing a kill. You can break earlier and nuke twice, as a simple example. I understand you are talking about saving mana by waiting longer to break charm (potentially saving nuke mana), but saving mana is not the same as securing the kill.

Nobody said you need instant/gobby to secure a fight. The point is securing it slightly later to not only avoid nuking twice, but to barely have to nuke at all.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

2. The later you wait to break charm, the higher the probability of losing the mob and getting 0% XP. It's possible you end up losing more mobs with instant invis than without it, because it is tempting you towards a riskier playstyle of waiting until the last possible second. You need to determine if the increased risk of losing the mob by waiting longer to break charm is worth the potential mana saving, as each mob lost will counter multiple mobs where you may have saved some nuke mana.

Just no. Again. You get to a point where you get a feel for if the mob can take an extra round or not and at what point you can finish it with the smallest realistic nuke. Again, losing mobs is not a thing with gobby ring.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

3. Mobs typically do one combat round every 2 seconds. You can parse their hit rate and average damage roll. It's not difficult to do a prediction for the next round. When you've played the game long enough, you can often do this without parsing if you've fought the mob or similar mobs enough times to intuit their DPS. If you are ultra paranoid about a miss, you can always duck the 2 second invis and start it again if a miss occurs. You'll extend the charmed pet by 1 combat round that way, as both the combat round and cast time are two seconds.

You can't sandwich a 2second cast between 2 rounds if the delay is 2sec. Just with your reaction time invis is bound to land after the next round. Why would I introduce extra guesswork and dancing around the timing when I can just do without it? Yeah you can secure mobs without gobby ring but with gobby there's no guess work or dancing around, it is basically just waiting for the right time.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

4. The benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel over Goblin Ring are as follows:
A. You get regular invis for free (more mana saving).
B. You don't need to switch targets, as Ring of Stealthy Travel is self cast. This saves a bit of time and reduces targeting errors.
C. You only need to mem invis when invising others, saving spellbook time.
D. Free clickie invis allows you to save mana and time in scenarios where you can lull some mobs and invis around the rest. You don't always need to lull every mob.

A. Irrelevant, I'd rather use improved invis/superior camo. It is outside a fight anyway so mana doesn't matter.
B. Irrelevant. You'll have your target selected and when you break you have to switch to your ex pet anyway to root. Ring is on hotbar so I just hit F1 and hotbutton# in quick succession and its done. I know there's a macro out there but I find it unnecessary.
C. See point A.
D. See point A. I'm not risking invis breaking for 75 mana.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

5. Druids get free damage options. If the mob does end up with an extra 50 HP after your first nuke, you can use Lumi Staff or ES Arms to finish it off for free. Goblin Ring is not the only way you can save mana on finishing the mob. This method can be less risky too, as it allows you to break when the mob has a bit more HP.

Fair point if you're 46+.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Nobody said you need instant/gobby to secure a fight. The point is securing it slightly later to not only avoid nuking twice, but to barely have to nuke at all.

Looking back on the thread:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The goblin ring will save you mana in every one of those charm fights and guarantee you get 100% XP from every kill. That's huge.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It is also absolutely easier to not lose mobs when they're a hair away from death, that is not even up for debate.

Perhaps these quotes were just worded incorrectly, and I appreciate your clarification. I just want to be clear that the argument for instant invis is only about possible mana saving.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just no... Again, losing mobs is not a thing with gobby ring.

Unless you have done a lot of A B testing with and without Goblin Ring, you probably don't actually know how many mobs you've lost with Goblin Ring vs. without. The later you wait to break charm, the higher the chance of losing the mob. That does need to be weighed against the nuke mana saving, and nobody seems to have actually done the testing on this. Similar to gambling, people tend to weigh their wins more than their losses, so that could be clouding your judgement.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again. You get to a point where you get a feel for if the mob can take an extra round or not and at what point you can finish it with the smallest realistic nuke.

I agree. That's why you can use Ring of Stealthy Travel just as well as Goblin Ring. You can predict a few seconds ahead of time when you need to break charm, rather than relying on Goblin Ring.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can't sandwich a 2second cast between 2 rounds if the delay is 2sec. Just with your reaction time invis is bound to land after the next round.

You can:

0 seconds - Mob Round
1 seconds - Start Casting Invis
2 seconds - Mob Round
3 seconds - Finish Casting Invis (Charm Break)
4 seconds - Mob Round

If you have good enough reaction time to break charm via Goblin Ring in between the two second rounds, you can time invis between them too. As you said earlier, you get a feel for how much more damage the mob can take before they die. If the mob round at 2 seconds was a miss, you can duck and recast invis.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

A. Irrelevant, I'd rather use improved invis/superior camo. It is outside a fight anyway so mana doesn't matter.
B. Irrelevant. You'll have your target selected and when you break you have to switch to your ex pet anyway to root. Ring is on hotbar so I just hit F1 and hotbutton# in quick succession and its done. I know there's a macro out there but I find it unnecessary.
C. See point A.
D. See point A. I'm not risking invis breaking for 75 mana.

You can claim these benefits are irrelevant if you wish. The difference between my argument and yours is I can actually quantify the benefits of Ring of Stealthy Travel. These are easy to test yourself and see I am correct. You are currently unable to actually show you are saving more mana and losing the same or less mobs with Goblin Ring. You are also unable to show that Ring of Stealthy Travel is less efficient than Goblin Ring.

Originally Posted by Goregasmic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fair point if you're 46+.

Indeed. Ring of Stealthy Travel is usable at 49, so you'll have access to Lumi Staff and ES arms by then. So you can break with Ring of Stealthy Travel, not need to wait as long to break using the Goblin Ring Strategy (less risky), and still save the same mana by using Lumi Staff or ES Arms.

[Goregasmic]

I started writing a longer post but basically your argument is that in the BEST CASE SCENARIO stealthy would be just as good goblin but with extra hoops to jump through (the ducking). I'm not paying an extra 4k for a ring I have to cancel the effect half the time because rng gonna rng when gobby takes all the fiddling and guesswork out of the way.

As for the gobby vs no gobby AB testing, I've done 44 levels without and 15 levels with and I can tell you I lost significantly more mobs and had to nuke harder without... but its hard to lose less mobs than the zero i'm losing with gobby. The whole "breaking closer to death has more loss potential" argument has no ground to stand on because the result would be the same with a stealthy ring if it supposedly performs the same. If you chose to to break earlier with stealthy to prevent risk you can do that with a gobby ring too.

Edit: I think snaggles nailed it. /thread.

[loramin]

DSM, stop the theorycrafting and try to actually charm fight as a Druid (with and without the ring). You'll see very quickly why you're in the wrong.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM, stop the theorycrafting and try to actually charm fight as a Druid (with and without the ring). You'll see very quickly why you're in the wrong.

I have done plenty of charming and fights in general. As you can see, Loramin cannot back up his theory with evidence either. Resorting to an argument from authority fallacy does not make you look good, or support your position.

If it is so obvious and easy to prove, it should be no trouble for you to do! I await your evidence.

[Snaggles]

It’s possible to simply miss-time a Goblin ring click and lose your pet or kill the other mob. The Stealthy ring adds 2 seconds to this potential for human error. In the high end game this could be a lot of hit points to burn down.

I can see why an ench, Druid, or necro (without a COS) might deal with a Stealthy ring at 60. You are doing more pet resets than low HP grinding. I think leveling up without an instant click is a huge disadvantage. Outside quad charming with my Druid for the hot minute I did, it was less important for that class since you can dot for free.

I hate the Gob ring and adore the Stealthy but instant is instant. Just use one until it servers no purpose. I’ve never had an issue selling one so this a moot point to even fellow haters.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Snaggles [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It’s possible to simply miss-time a Goblin ring click and lose your pet or kill the other mob. The Stealthy ring adds 2 seconds to this potential for human error. In the high end game this could be a lot of hit points to burn down.

I can see why an ench, Druid, or necro (without a COS) might deal with a Stealthy ring at 60. You are doing more pet resets than low HP grinding. I think leveling up without an instant click is a huge disadvantage. Outside quad charming with my BARD for the hot minute I did, it was less important for that class since you can dot for free.

I hate the Gob ring and adore the Stealthy but instant is instant. Just use one until it servers no purpose. I’ve never had an issue selling one so this a moot point to even fellow haters.

Fixing a typo; bard not Druid. I was “quad-charming” suites for a bit with the bard. Sometimes both 4s and 6s when they were free. It’s not relevant to this convo but hps drop very quick with that kind of dps.

I finished up doing Expedition Dwarves and a 3 sec selo song of travel worked or just letting the 3 tick charm fade but again…run speed and infinite dots make whittling down most things very easy.

[bcbrown]

DSM have you tried doing any charming without a goblin ring or other invis clicky?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by bcbrown [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM have you tried doing any charming without a goblin ring or other invis clicky?

Yes I have. I've also killed thousands of mobs over the years of all levels, so I have a pretty good feel for how DPS works in a fight.

[bcbrown]

Could you tell us a little more about your experiences charming? What levels/zones have you charmed without a goblin ring, and what levels/zones have you charmed with one?