Drama

[soup]

Originally Posted by rioisk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Greetings,

We will be tweaking this along with some other rules as we move forward but it is time to address some issues with camps that have been coming up. I will try to use some examples to clarify rules.

1. Going forward, if you intend to hold or claim a camp, your group must retain presence at that camp. If you have no competition in the zone, you are more than welcome to hold as many as you like. The moment another party wants to claim a camp and you are "farming" multiple, you must decide which camp you want and forfeit the ones someone else is interested in. We still expect players to use the courtesy camp check before zerging a room. If there is a full spawn of mobs in a camp room up I think that would be considered not camped. How you pull the camp is up to you, as long as you are able to engage the mobs very shortly after they are spawned.

*Example* You are doing Ghoul Magi, Lord, and Frenzy in lguk. Another group arrives to claim a camp. If they stumble upon a spawned room devoid of players, they can claim it. Where your group resides is your camp; choose wisely.

2. Just because you know the timer a mob's spawn does NOT mean you are entitled to the camp. Examples include Ishva mal, Estrella, and Undertow. I have seen too many threads about ishva mal in particular where there is a person there at the camp and someone comes and either KS's the spawn or charms the mob to bring it somewhere else etc claiming it was theirs due to it being on timer. If you are trying to timer a spawn and you arrive and someone else is there, too bad, you should have been there earlier.

3. The efreeti spawn kind of covers both of these situations, with this camp in particular if you are not at the spawn and another group arrives, you lose it.

4. In order to hold a camp, the player or group must be able to demonstrate the ability to hold the camp without further help.
*Example* An enchanter and lvl 40 ranger are in a group. The enchanter leaves to go kill frenzy and the ranger stay at lord. In this instance both camps are not considered held as the ranger could not survive this camp on his own without the enchanter.

5. Outdoor pathing mobs are not campable unless you are sitting at the spawn point and able to engage it instantly. Outdoor mobs on fast respawn such as HG and spectres, if you cannot engage immediately you do not hold the camp. Please try and share with fellow players in these instances.

6. AFK camping is not respected and is frowned upon, if caught afk camping you will be booted to the character select screen.

7. We do not have a rule for how a camp will be handed off to another player. It is recommended the player interested in obtaining a camp work that out with who is on the camp already.
*Example* Player a is on jboots, player b comes and sits and just waits. If player a wants to hand off to his friend rather than player b, he has that right. If player a wants to hold a list and give to the next player on that list, that is also his right. GMs will not moderate that unless player b can prove he was deceived by player a with how the camp would be handed off.

Any deal between players trumps any of these rules so long as all players agree. These rules are here to be a guide to players for what rights they have while in the game. In my opinion this is very similar to what SoE did with camp disputes in game. As Nilbog has said in this thread, in 99 every named spawn in zones would have entire groups at them. If one group was capitalizing on more than one spawn and a second group wanted half or to share and then petitioned, PNP would be enforced and the groups would be forced to share. This is a guide explaining how we would like things to be shared.

Failure to comply and respect these rules will be viewed as disruptive behavior and players will be subject to disciplinary action. Please dont let it come to this.

Step 1: make an agreement
Step 2: renege on agreement and kill mob anyway
Step 3: say it's okay to renege on said agreement because server rules allow it
yeaahhhhhhhhh

[Stepy]

"And as I've said before and I will say again, just because according to server rules zoning out for 20 seconds then back in means the camp is a FFA and anyone can claim it doesn't mean you aren't a grade A douche bag for deciding to do so, ESPECIALLY if you had just made a deal to let someone do a round then hand the camp over. Making a deal to let them solo it then negating it because they zone out for 20 seconds is completely retarded. "

Unless things have changed since the old days or maybe i have forgotten in my old age but doesn't zoning from King area put at the L.Guk entrance in U. Guk and you have to invis/run all the way back? It seems this process would take much longer than 20 seconds unless the enchanter was bound close to this area and would just zone and port back.
Regardless, I believe once he zone the group wasn't obligated to let him return to claim it but did give him another chance. He certainally didn't offer them the same chance when they reported of the wipe.

[guineapig]

Originally Posted by Stepy [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Unless things have changed since the old days or maybe i have forgotten in my old age but doesn't zoning from King area put at the L.Guk entrance in U. Guk and you have to invis/run all the way back? It seems this process would take much longer than 20 seconds unless the enchanter was bound close to this area and would just zone and port back.

No, it puts you in Inhotule swamp at Uguk zoneline....

[Stepy]

"No, it puts you in Inhotule swamp at Uguk zoneline...."

Good to know, since I don't useally camp the king i wouldn't need to zone out. Regardless it would take much longer than the 20 or even 30 seconds to return to camp unless you were bound near it and gate back.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Originally Posted by soup [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Step 1: make an agreement
Step 2: renege on agreement and kill mob anyway
Step 3: say it's okay to renege on said agreement because server rules allow it
yeaahhhhhhhhh

More like:

Step 1: make an agreement because you now have rights the camp with the group that previously had rights to the camp
Step 2: lose rights to the camp by zoning
Step 3: cry

Why is it a douchebag move to take a camp after the guy camping it zones for 30 seconds, but not a douchebag move to move in on a camp while the group camping it previously made a mistake, wiped, and are on CR? I mean, exp loss and the corpse run are bad enough, now some douchebag is kicking them in the teeth by taking their camp, too! See, it works both ways... so all we have after all that subjective "who's the bigger douchebag here?" shit-slinging are the fairly objective rules.

And since you're all about throwing out hypothetical situations, who's to say they had full ability to hold the camp, but wiped because someone trained shit on them?

My group moved in on GY in Mistmoore Friday night after the previous group there wiped. Full spawn. I felt bad about it, but by the server rules, they couldn't hold the camp and did not retain their presence there. I was not going to argue with my group about it, and I wasn't going to lose any sleep over it. Those of us who try to avoid being perceived as douchebags 100% of the time would get walked all over by everyone else, and still be level 10 with banded armor if we didn't stick up for ourselves, especially in the overcamped zones on the server.

[rioisk]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Why is it a douchebag move to take a camp after the guy camping it zones for 30 seconds, but not a douchebag move to move in on a camp while the group camping it previously made a mistake, wiped, and are on CR? .

This^^

[soup]

Originally Posted by YendorLootmonkey [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More like:

Step 1: make an agreement because you now have rights the camp with the group that previously had rights to the camp
Step 2: lose rights to the camp by zoning
Step 3: cry

Why is it a douchebag move to take a camp after the guy camping it zones for 30 seconds, but not a douchebag move to move in on a camp while the group camping it previously made a mistake, wiped, and are on CR? I mean, exp loss and the corpse run are bad enough, now some douchebag is kicking them in the teeth by taking their camp, too! See, it works both ways... so all we have after all that subjective "who's the bigger douchebag here?" shit-slinging are the fairly objective rules.

And since you're all about throwing out hypothetical situations, who's to say they had full ability to hold the camp, but wiped because someone trained shit on them?

My group moved in on GY in Mistmoore Friday night after the previous group there wiped. Full spawn. I felt bad about it, but by the server rules, they couldn't hold the camp and did not retain their presence there. I was not going to argue with my group about it, and I wasn't going to lose any sleep over it. Those of us who try to avoid being perceived as douchebags 100% of the time would get walked all over by everyone else, and still be level 10 with banded armor if we didn't stick up for ourselves, especially in the overcamped zones on the server.

The douche baggery is pretty easy to measure based on knowledge of the situation either party had while they were doing what they were doing. The enchanter came up to a fully spawned camp, and began clearing it with (presumably) no knowledge that a group had wiped there and was corpse running. He just sees a full spawn with no one around, so it appears to be an open camp. Once they explain the situation to him he says alright, what if I just kill the next PH then hand it back over, sound fair? And they agree.

On the flipside, when the group moved in on the "empty camp" that was now almost fully cleared, they were 100% aware of the enchanter and the deal they had made, but tossed it all aside.

[Alawen Everywhere]

Originally Posted by soup [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The douche baggery is pretty easy to measure based on knowledge of the situation either party had while they were doing what they were doing. The enchanter came up to a fully spawned camp, and began clearing it with (presumably) no knowledge that a group had wiped there and was corpse running. He just sees a full spawn with no one around, so it appears to be an open camp. Once they explain the situation to him he says alright, what if I just kill the next PH then hand it back over, sound fair? And they agree.

On the flipside, when the group moved in on the "empty camp" that was now almost fully cleared, they were 100% aware of the enchanter and the deal they had made, but tossed it all aside.

You can never know the motivations of any individual. This is the same error in reason that leads to corruption in legal systems and stupid ideas like "hate crimes". Only the rule of law can deliver impartial justice.

[rioisk]

In other words, if you have to zone to break the camp you can not handle the camp and you forfeit it.

[soup]

Originally Posted by rioisk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In other words, if you have to zone to break the camp you can not handle the camp and you forfeit it.

1. it's not a matter of not being able to handle the camp without zoning, it's a matter of speeding up the process, which also works to the benefit of the people who made the deal, assuming they honor that deal anyway, which brings us to:
2. no matter what the rules say, making a deal then throwing it out the window because you haven't seen the person you made the deal with for 20 seconds makes you a douche bag

It's crazy how many people here place no value whatsoever on mutually agreed arrangements.