most underpowered class in game?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I’m not focused on raiding. I think I take a balanced view. Speed of xp solo/grouped. Raid role. Can handle moderately tough mobs solo. Is excellent duo or trio.

You’re focusing entirely on level 60 shaman torpor God tier soloing to exclusion of all else. It’s such a high standard which 75% of the classes don’t come close to, let alone meet! It’s no argument against magicians in particular.

I am not. I am weighing them mostly in the solo/group category since the average player does not heavily raid, and therefore are probably not leveling their character to become a CoTH bot.

Mage's do not do well at high levels due to lack of Utility and CC. You are basically making the assumption a Mage is going to level their character to high 50s and then quit. I am taking into account people who play their level 60 characters after they level them.

Leveling fast means nothing when you can't do much by the time you hit 55 other than CoTHing and farming lower level mobs. Bards would be better at that anyway via swarming.

Mages just don't offer anything special outside of CoTH. They fill the DPS role in a group, which other classes can fill fine. Their lack of CC and Utility prevents them from doing anything interesting solo-wise at high levels.

They are basically the only class I can think of that gets worse as they level, because the lack of CC and Utility just hurts them more and more each level.

[PatChapp]

Originally Posted by Fammaden [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yeah if a qualifier is "has mage epic" that leaves out a vast majority of anyone who's ever going to roll the class.

My mage is very trash geared. I think 180int, some empty slots currently. Standard lvl 60 mage stuff.
I think would be possible with actual gear, but epic adds another 0cost pet so makes a big difference.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wouldn't put too much stock in that guide... It's either outdated or not that accurate.

That guide's outdated. It was written when P1999 was in Kunark. Hence for example everyone could get soulfires and Divine Strength did not yet exist, de-valuing those current-day Paladin advantages. That being said, for as old as that guide is, on balance it's held up pretty well and is still useful provided the reader understands its age and limitations.

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I think calling mages the bottom is a bit of a "hot take." It's too strong for me really to agree with that claim. It's always a strong leveling character and is a very strong character overall when there's a level 50 cap in place. It's no worse than average range for normal grouping, strong for high-end farm groups, and somewhere in the middle for raiding. For level 60 solo it's also probably someplace in the middle. The only place it's clearly bad is high-level duo'ing. On the other hand, in the level 60 environment it doesn't really shine anyplace, either, so it's often over-shadowed. Overall I call it someplace in the middle, maybe low end of average. There are numerous characters in this game I'd rate similarly.

Danth

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That guide's outdated. It was written when P1999 was in Kunark. Hence for example everyone could get soulfires and Divine Strength did not yet exist, de-valuing those current-day Paladin advantages. That being said, for as old as that guide is, on balance it's held up pretty well and is still useful provided the reader understands its age and limitations.

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I think calling mages the bottom is a bit of a "hot take." It's too strong for me really to agree with that claim. It's always a strong leveling character and is a very strong character overall when there's a level 50 cap in place. It's no worse than average range for normal grouping, strong for high-end farm groups, and somewhere in the middle for raiding. For level 60 solo it's also probably someplace in the middle. The only place it's clearly bad is high-level duo'ing. On the other hand, in the level 60 environment it doesn't really shine anyplace, either, so it's often over-shadowed. Overall I call it someplace in the middle, maybe low end of average. There are numerous characters in this game I'd rate similarly.

Danth

I don't think it's a hot take. The easiest way to tell is by looking at what players actually do with their characters. I rarely (if ever) see level 60 Mages out in the wild doing random stuff. I only see Mages in raids to be honest. If the class was so great, why do people stop playing them at high levels, with the exception of raiding?

I see more Paladins/Shadowknights/Rangers in the wild, even though they are played less than Mages I believe metric-wise.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't think it's a hot take. .

Good. Threads would get boring fast if everyone agreed all the time. Respectful disagreement largely fuels internet discussions like this one.

That being said, I think the magician has a special concern: Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

Danth

[Jimjam]

All classes lose relative power as they level. A level 1 monk can one round an even con mob while naked. A 60 monk can’t do that. The 60 monk isn’t underpowered compared to the level 1 cos it can beat up the same level 1 mob even more easily!

Similarly, I don’t think you can hold up a 60 mage to a 55 mage and say the 60 mage is underpowered in comparison. The 60 mage can do everything a 55 can do, but with more wriggle room. Like the 60 mag can’t secure xp on 37-39 mobs and thats the difference.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Danth [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Good. Threads would get boring fast if everyone agreed all the time. Respectful disagreement largely fuels internet discussions like this one.

That being said, I think the magician has a special concern: Call of the Hero. I've called it a character-killer before. It provides an immensely powerful motivator to park the magician someplace while the player does stuff using other characters. Because of that spell, all else being equal I'd expect to see fewer magicians out and about. I see more classes like rogues and wizards trying to solo and duo things out in the game world than I do magicians, even though those classes are definitely worse for that type of activity than magician is.

Danth

I agree, and this is one of the reasons why Mages are the most underpowered. If they were more powerful, less people would become CoTH bots (unless guilds heavily increased the benefits from doing so).

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

[Jimjam]

Are there any magician seb crypt solo videos? I’d like to see one. Otherwise maybe paladin is higher on the list after all.

[Jimjam]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I agree, and this is one of the reasons why Mages are the most underpowered. If they were more powerful, less people would become CoTH bots (unless guilds heavily increased the benefits from doing so).

I can guarantee you would still see more Enchanters out in the wild if they also had CoTH, for example.

They need group coth at 60 to stop them peaking too early. Something like that I could agree with.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

All classes lose relative power as they level. A level 1 monk can one round an even con mob while naked. A 60 monk can’t do that. The 60 monk isn’t underpowered compared to the level 1 cos it can beat up the same level 1 mob even more easily!

Similarly, I don’t think you can hold up a 60 mage to a 55 mage and say the 60 mage is underpowered in comparison. The 60 mage can do everything a 55 can do, but with more wriggle room. Like the 60 mag can’t secure xp on 37-39 mobs and thats the difference.

Not true at all. Shamans are their most powerful at level 60 with Torpor. Same with Enchanters at level 60 with Dictate.

Monks are more powerful at level 60 than earlier levels, and can improve that via gear. Every class can kill well at low levels, so I am not sure why you are bringing that up.

The problem with Mages is their lack of CC and Utility basically just make them a DPS class similar to a Monk. The difference being that they cannot improve their pets via gear, so they have no room for improvement.