Warriors are useless in 90% of the games content

[enjchanter]

Yawn

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by fortior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you can keep a warrior up more easily than a knight, and FD/lull aside I don't see the added utility. that warrior better be raid geared though otherwise I'm inviting the monk.


I'm never inviting the knight.

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Warriors are better than Knights in group content that doesn't require Knight spells due to their added dps.

FD, Lull and Snap Agro are generally better than an ok DPS bump in a game with DPS diminishing returns like P99. Especially when most P99 characters are overgeared for the content.

Most content isn't designed around characters having end game weapons and 34%+ haste items. This is why you don't see 6 player groups that often. The DPS increase of more players does not yield the group more XP. The extra utility Knights provide allow more options for low number groups, which are more efficient.

Nor do I see scenarios where a bit of extra tankiness was needed on content that doesn't need Warrior discs. Lifetaps, heals, fear, and root are all tools that can be used when needed.

[Naethyn]

I won't try to argue why dps is good, but If we are going to categorize content by warrior disc, I propose we do the same for knight spells. What content needs knight spells?

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I won't try to argue why dps is good, but If we are going to categorize content by warrior disc, I propose we do the same for knight spells. What content needs knight spells?

Nobody is suggesting DPS is bad. I certainly didn't say that.

Diminishing returns means you only need a certain amount of DPS to clear content. Past that DPS threshold, you aren't getting more kills per hour. If you aren't getting more kills per hour, the extra DPS is mostly useless. With slows and heals, you generally don't need the extra DPS to specifically kill the mob before it kills you in group scenarios.

For your question about what content needs knight spells, a simple example is Fungi King. You aren't using a Warrior to pull Fungi King. You're using a Shadowknight or a Monk.

Are Knight spells absolutely necessary for most content? Of course not. Just like Warrior discs are not absolutely necessary for most content.

Utility > DPS in most group content. This is because the DPS threshold for most group content isn't very high, and P99 characters are already doing above average DPS for the content due to their above average gear. A level 30 P99 Knight is probably doing more DPS than a level 30 Warrior in level 30 appropriate gear, something like Crafted Armor and Minotaur Axes.

An easy way to think about it is just to look at Enchanters. They have enough utility and DPS by themselves to clear more content than any other class solo. A torched + hasted pet in Sebilis is doing something like 100 DPS. A group consisting of a Paladin/SK + Rogue + Shaman is already doing at least 150 DPS, and you have Lull/FD + Root + Slow + Heals. Could you swap the Paladin/SK for a Warrior to get an extra bit of DPS? Sure, but then you would lose Lull/FD and snap agro, which may slow down pulls or kills. The extra DPS from a Warrior is not happening in a complete vacuum, where you can ignore pull speed, pull quality, root breaks, CC in camp, snap agro, etc.

[Naethyn]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are Knight spells absolutely necessary for most content? Of course not. Just like Warrior discs are not absolutely necessary for most content..

So if knight spells aren’t absolutely necessary and neither are warrior discs that only leaves dps and hp and the warrior does better at both.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So if knight spells aren’t absolutely necessary and neither are warrior discs that only leaves dps and hp and the warrior does better at both.

You glossed over my entire post regarding DPS diminishing returns and utility. You'll need to re-read it. DPS also isn't absolutely necessary past a certain point. Nor is max HP and AC absolutely necessary past a certain point.

Tanks in general aren't absolutely necessary for most group content, which is why you see power trios like Monk/Enchanter/Shaman. I am not sure why you are trying to go down this reductive line of thinking.

[Naethyn]

Shadowknights are the worst dps melee in the game fyi.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Shadowknights are the worst dps melee in the game fyi.

That has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. P99 Knights are still doing above average DPS when compared to the gear level that is expected for most content. The average P99 player is much better geared than what the developers balanced the content around.

You don't seem to understand how DPS diminishing returns work.

If you kill Fungi King in 100 seconds with an SK instead of 70 seconds with a Warrior, you still have to wait 30 minutes for a respawn. In this simple example, the pull utility of a Knight is far superior to the extra DPS of a Warrior. This is because killing Fungi King 30 seconds faster will not grant you any extra Fungi King kills within a single session. You'd have to kill Fungi King 60 times in a row to get 1 extra spawn, which is 30 hours straight with no breaks.

[Naethyn]

I know you think ogres are amazing, and shadowknights are ultra powerful, and if that's how you want to play no one can stop you. I also won't stop you from picking ideal scenarios where your reality is true. But please don't try to apply it to most other things it looks silly.

The end of the story is knights are less dps, less health, and less mitigation and as you get higher level it becomes more and more evident. Shitty hybrid spells are useful when you play with bad players, but in reality you should probably just be swinging your weapon more, and warriors do that almost twice as good at 60.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I know you think ogres are amazing, and shadowknights are ultra powerful, and if that's how you want to play no one can stop you. I also won't stop you from picking ideal scenarios where your reality is true. But please don't try to apply it to most other things it looks silly.

This is incorrect. Attacking other players with lies and nonsense just makes you look bad.

If you want to go down this route, people can just claim you are biased due to being a Warrior main. Then we are back to square one.

Originally Posted by Naethyn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The end of the story is knights are less dps, less health, and less mitigation and as you get higher level it becomes more and more evident. Shitty hybrid spells are useful when you play with bad players, but in reality you should probably just be swinging your weapon more, and warriors do that almost twice as good at 60.

Knights have more utility than Warriors. Most content can be slowed, which means it usually doesn't matter that Warriors have better mitigation. DPS has diminishing returns because respawn timers exist, and P99 players have above average gear for their level. If you are waiting for respawns, and can recover before the respawns occur, you have already hit your DPS threshold.

You can choose to ignore these realities, but it won't change reality. Knights are better than Warriors for the vast majority of content, excluding content that needs Warrior Discs.