BDA to Phinigel

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

More time/effort invested = more loot with /random. Laws of Probability are universal laws. You can't argue them away. If you /random more, you win more loot on average.

You can definitely argue with badly applied math though. Sure, more loot with more time invested will happen with /random, but not in a way that is always proportional to the time invested. Some raids have a different amount of loot per unit time than others. And sometimes that might even be 0 loot per many hours invested if an encounter is failed.

In addition, this can be further abused by people showing up late but before loot has dropped.

The whole reason DKP exists, at least in theory, is to equalize loot currency per time, otherwise everyone would indeed be using /random rather than inventing complicated systems.

[Juryiel]

Oh right, another issue would be that if it's some raid that has no loot for my class, or from which I have all the loot already, no reason for me to show up - that effort does not transfer over to other raids.

[jcr4990]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I did in another thread. Your job analogy doesn't compare. I'm not an economist, statistician, bayesian rationalist or even that good at math and logical arguments. But I know the argument that DKP is fair is unsound. I'll try to explain it, will probably fail to make anyone understand and get trolled in the process, but here it is anyway:

Dollars in the real world to spend on things in the real world are not the same as DKP in the virtual world to spend on virtual things because nobody is standing in line at McDonald's bidding against each other for a cheeseburger.

You don't go to work with 30 other people just so that one guy gets a cheeseburger, purchased with virtual bucks.


More time/effort invested = more loot with /random. Laws of Probability are universal laws. You can't argue them away. If you /random more, you win more loot on average.

DKP does not distribute as evenly as /random. This is a fact. People who don't show up to raids as often won't spend their DKP on the shit that (apparently you stupidly let rot) because they are saving up for higher value items. These are the 20%ers or less maybe? Or if you're elitist, the 50%ers, since you kicked all of the 20%ers. It doesn't matter where you shift the line, someone is getting shafted. Anyway, the 35 minimum DKP loot is getting scooped up by the top tier, because the lower tiers are saving their DKP for the things they want, but the top tier is still getting the majority of the top loot as well as the bottom loot, because they can afford it, so the guy on the bottom is getting shafted.

If you're not looking at the math, you need to re-evaluate who the special kind of stupid one is. Post the numbers of the last three months of DKP accrued, raids attended and loot distributed and we'll see who's right. I bet Clue's numbers are more in line for what people should be getting when it comes to time invested.

Swing and a miss imo

Let me know when you find a halfway decent raid guild in any mmo that thinks /randoming loot is a good idea. We can all sit around and nitpick at the downfalls of DKP (and there are some) but like you said the facts don't lie. There's a reason nearly every major guild uses the same system (or a variation of it)

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You can definitely argue with badly applied math though. Sure, more loot with more time invested will happen with /random, but not in a way that is always proportional to the time invested. Some raids have a different amount of loot per unit time than others. And sometimes that might even be 0 loot per many hours invested if an encounter is failed.

True, but first you need to decide if you want to talk about per hour invested or per encounter invested. The 0's balance because on a fail, nobody is getting loot.

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

In addition, this can be further abused by people showing up late but before loot has dropped.

If this is a problem, it can be mitigated with a simple rule instigated by leadership - "If you're not here 15 minutes at the start of the raid, don't show up and expect a /random"

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The whole reason DKP exists, at least in theory, is to equalize loot currency per time, otherwise everyone would indeed be using /random rather than inventing complicated systems.

The whole reason DKP exists is because some people think their time is more valuable than someone else's and should count for more. /random naturally takes care of who shows up for more loot gets more loot. If you took the same 50 people raiding together for 1 year on purely /random, the people who showed up more would have more to show for it. Would the guy who showed up for the most raids have won Uber Item of Ultimate Penis Envy? Possibly not, but he'd have had as fair a shake to get it as anyone else without putting his thumb on the scale.

As soon as you build a system that favors one outcome over another, you can throw fairness out the window.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Oh right, another issue would be that if it's some raid that has no loot for my class, or from which I have all the loot already, no reason for me to show up - that effort does not transfer over to other raids.

Never heard of quid pro quo? It goes both ways you know.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by jcr4990 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Swing and a miss imo

Let me know when you find a halfway decent raid guild in any mmo that thinks /randoming loot is a good idea. We can all sit around and nitpick at the downfalls of DKP (and there are some) but like you said the facts don't lie. There's a reason nearly every major guild uses the same system (or a variation of it)

The reason is most people don't bother to learn the math.

[Juryiel]

Originally Posted by Ravager [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

True, but first you need to decide if you want to talk about per hour invested or per encounter invested. The 0's balance because on a fail, nobody is getting loot.

If this is a problem, it can be mitigated with a simple rule instigated by leadership - "If you're not here 15 minutes at the start of the raid, don't show up and expect a /random"

The whole reason DKP exists is because some people think their time is more valuable than someone else's and should count for more. /random naturally takes care of who shows up for more loot gets more loot. If you took the same 50 people raiding together for 1 year on purely /random, the people who showed up more would have more to show for it. Would the guy who showed up for the most raids have won Uber Item of Ultimate Penis Envy? Possibly not, but he'd have had as fair a shake to get it as anyone else without putting his thumb on the scale.

As soon as you build a system that favors one outcome over another, you can throw fairness out the window.

The thing with fails is that it leads to people only showing up on 'farming' raids or when a new raid is close to being figured out or won, and it makes it hard to progress. As far as the 15 minute rule, sure you could introduce this. But then this hurts raiding because people who are late won't show up to fill up the ranks of people who may have to log. It also disallows people starting raids early to clear the easy stuff, etc.

You add more rules and can come up with some sort of complicated system to deal with all of this of course - and by the end of this process you will realize you just build your own version of DKP.

The whole point is though, with random not all required effort is rewarded, and some effort is rewarded more than other effort.

And I also understand the quid pro quo thing, but I also understand human nature. You can try to build a system around ideals about what people should do, or you can build on that is practical and works because it's based on what people WILL do.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by big_ole_jpn [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

yeah double DKP sounds double awful.

Not something you would implement unless you had very high turnover and lots of members with very little DKP/gear. Well, I suppose the other option is that the officers making that call are mongoloids.

only reason for double dkp is being incapable of doing the simple math to do quarterly adjustments to mean of dkp totals. aka the hallmark of guilds you should not join.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Originally Posted by Daldaen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/....236963/page-2

This becomes the uber-content. The race to be the first/fastest to complete the newest releases content. That's how EQ has been since instancing. What keeps them around for the farm period inbetween expansions is the guild/friends you are hanging out with and gearing up for the next release.

Now granted, this thread is retarded because comparing instanced and open world raids is dumb. But yea, direct competition for mobs changed to become who can do it faster or more efficiently in their own instance, which is really a much better way of measuring your dick. Especially when you compare it to how it's done on this server...

I'd much rather see A/A posting their time from first kill to complete ToV clear rather than who won some races that week. I think at this point a full ToV clear could be done in less than 2 hours using the strats currently used, if you got in a rhthym. Likewise I think VP could probably be done in <30minutes if you got in a rhthym. Those would be things worth posting about. At the same time, the CSGs and Venerates of the world who couldn't give a flying fuck about kill times would be able to post "we raided NToV on Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday, crawling the zone like it was intended. Grats these guys on Vulak loot!"

Instances let you make the game the way you want it to be played, and if you want a challenge or competitive dickwagging fest, you can insert that into your gameplay.

I hear ya. But I'm just saying instancing is a double edged sword. I am not sure there is any good solution. I'm going to be an outlier and say eq2 actually did an ok job first few years of balancing contested and instanced content. That may be the way to go.

[Ravager]

Originally Posted by Juryiel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but I also understand human nature. You can try to build a system around ideals about what people should do, or you can build on that is practical and works because it's based on what people WILL do.

People fuck everything up. That's why /random is the only fair way to go. You can't fix a bias with another bias. It just doesn't work that way. If you know that a particular outcome will happen 70% of the time and you try to compensate for that by guessing which outcome will happen with a 70% rate, you're only going to be right 49% of the time, where if you just said, "This will happen 70% of the time." You'd be right 70% of the time.

And in the case with DKP, a handful of individuals prosper at the expense of a majority that were promised fairness.

The DKP argument goes, put in more time, get more loot, even loot you want. But I bet if you looked at the numbers of time spent vs. loot won vs. loot wanted, it'll be very much disproportionate. How many people bid on Uber Penis Extension of Halfling Intrigue? Only one gets it. How many people didn't get it? I bet the ones that didn't get it didn't start bidding on other crap, because they still want the Uber Penis Extension of Halfling Intrigue. That means all of the DKP they have is dormant. Just lying in wait, while other DKP out there is scooping up other loot (unless your idiot guild is letting that shit rot) so now who is really getting more loot for their time?

I really want to see the numbers. I predict it's not as even or fair as you think.