most underpowered class in game?

[eqravenprince]

Originally Posted by Zeboim [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just gonna say that if you tell a melee character they can't join your EXP group because of what weapon they have, you are an ENORMOUS tool.

Exactly

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Mino axe wielding lowbies will still chew through content.

No they won't. Unless your definition of "chew" is extremely slow.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

P99 isn't that hard

Correct. But it's definitely a timesink. And all we have in life is the little time we're given. So I prefer to not be excessively wasteful with it. Sitting around watching idiots slowly, inefficiently autoattack retarded MOBs with zero danger is extremely boring.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People play the majority of the game without needing to worry about DPS checks.

If you don't want to worry about DPS that is your own problem. Plenty of people do care about playing the game more intelligently and those people will be hitting Level 30 on a new server and claiming the item camps while you are level 15 and farting around in Oasis or wherever. These people will have multiple Level 60's (50's for pre-Kunark) for their guild to use while you have only 1.

And factually in 1999, DPS mattered even more than now, as there was no Play Nice Policy. Everything was a total free-for-all, whoever did the most damage to an NPC got the exp and loot. THAT is actual classic Everquest (even if the majority of people played the game casually).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I am talking about the real P99 servers. Red is dead, so the XP bonus is irrelevant. And no, a min/maxed group is not going to be running 6 people due to the xp penalty. It would be better to run multiple groups of 3 or 4 players and level in different areas if a guild is trying to fast level characters.

Red isn't dead, anyone can go there and play if they want. The exp bonus on that server could also be ported over to other servers if the management wants to.

You don't seem to understand the exp bonus, there is a significant increase given for each member added, such that adding a 6th player means your group is getting the same exp per kill as if you had 5 people in the group, but now with the benefit of a 6th person being there.

It's generally not more efficient to split the group into two 3-person groups, as you likely won't have exactly the correct composition for separate perfectly tuned 3-person groups. Plus the aspect of wanting a stronger group of people together anyway to be safer in PvP. Or for a PvE server in actual 1999 EQ, wanting to fill the group to 6 so that you have the best chance of outdamaging another group in a hotly contested area (which was extremely common right from the low levels in Blackburrow or Crushbone).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

We are not talking about your definition of successful. We are talking about the normal definition of successful, which is a group that can clear content without dying.

That is not the normal definition. Leveling faster and getting better gear is pretty universally considered more successful.

And there are absolutely MANY practical scenarios where a group composition with bad DPS is not going to be able to "clear the content". If you get a group of people together and want to dungeon crawl down to some camp and people only have 2 hours before they need to log off, then you might not even get there at all if your group is killing too slowly.

Originally Posted by Zeboim [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just gonna say that if you tell a melee character they can't join your EXP group because of what weapon they have, you are an ENORMOUS tool.

No, it means you don't want to waste time.

People are allowed to play the game more competitively if they want. In any actual Team-based competitive game, you take the people who are able to play at your level. Top ranked League of Legends players aren't sitting around trying to recruit Bronze level players to their teams for tournaments.

EQ can definitely be played more casually if desired. It can be fun to just hang out with people in a group and do some stuff and not worry about being super efficient. But for plenty of people, you don't want to be doing that all the time. You don't want to be spending 2x as long to do something for no reason.

And regardless, going back to discussing the power level of classes, it's absolutely idiotic either way to say DPS is irrelevant. If your group doesn't care about "Power Level", then whatever, they don't care. But a class like a Mage will FACTUALLY give a typical group the ability to kill more things. Which is exactly more powerful.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Red isn't dead

You are playing a different game if you really think this hehe. All I can do is share how most people play P99. If you only play with static groups and screen all your public groups, you can certainly play that way. But it isn't how most people play, and it doesn't suddenly make high DPS more necessary than it actually is. I have been in plenty of "low DPS" groups, and we got good XP rates. Again, most people aren't Min/Maxing XP groups, so your definition of "slow" doesn't match how most people play.

This doesn't magically make Mages way better in this timeline. Their slight increase in DPS compared to something like a Necromancer does not make up for their severe lack of utility, and general uselessness of summoned items.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Zeboim [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Just gonna say that if you tell a melee character they can't join your EXP group because of what weapon they have, you are an ENORMOUS tool.

sorry you dont got geared melee alt(s)

hope this helps

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have been in plenty of "low DPS" groups, and we got good XP rates.

You are not getting "good" XP if you have low DPS. It's basic math. Killing things = exp gain. And to kill things you need DPS. If you are doing 1/2 as much DPS as another equal sized team, then you are getting 1/2 as much exp (assuming shit is being pulled sufficiently fast and the defense is sufficient).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

most people aren't Min/Maxing XP groups, so your definition of "slow" doesn't match how most people play.

It doesn't matter how plebs play, in the end it's about an objective analysis of power level. That's what's being discussed in the thread. If you are killing slowly, then you are playing the game at less powerful level. Some people might be fine playing at a lower level, but they are factually doing far less than what's possible in the game (even for a "standard group", not some kind of 5 Enchanter and 1 Healer charm group).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This doesn't magically make Mages way better in this timeline. Their slight increase in DPS compared to something like a Necromancer does not make up for their severe lack of utility

If the goal is to maximize exp gain or other farming (and basically everyone in this game is either trying to level or get an item when they play), then yes a Mage might be better than Necro in a given group. You don't need much "utility" generally. All you really need is Root and an adequate level of defense (heals/slows/kiting). That part can be covered by 2 party members or even just 1. The remainder of the equation pretty much just comes down to how fast you can kill.

The question wasn't what is the overall better class between Necro/Mage though. I would say Necro. But that doesn't mean Mage is one of the most underpowered classes. If you were arguing strictly for PvP server then you would actually have a case, because the Mage's lack of defense, and pets not zoning with their casters, and direct damage spells being generally worthless vs well geared players, makes Mages weak indeed for that setting. Although even still, CotH alone is a better tool for a guild than what a Paladin provides, so...

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It doesn't matter how plebs play

It matters more than how you play, because that is not the norm. Sorry you don't understand this game.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

The problem is you honestly don't understand that you can level fairly quickly in a non-optimized group. Your standard is just too far into the extreme, because you are used to it. That doesn't mean most people are willing to go to that level, or that it is fun for most people. This isn't Diablo 2, where you are trying to max out as soon as possible. Everquest is long enough to where you can actually enjoy the journey to 60.

[Danth]

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You cannot ignore raiding just because you're a SK main and don't got guild. Hope this helps.

I sure can. I ignore raiding all the time. I don't care what's going on in temple veeshan this week. I am not alone. I give different advice to folks who want to raid and folks who do not. My shadow knight gives satisfactory service throughout the portions of the game I actually care about. I would not recommend it to someone who wanted to raid 5 nights a week.

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Originally Posted by cd288 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok man go do a group without any DPS, it will be SUPER fun and efficient. So no pet classes, no charming pets allowed either. No Rogues, no Monks.

The wife and I have a shaman/shadowknight duo. Most our friends tend to be stuff like druids, paladins, etc. Below-average damage output is a fact of life. We do fine. The game would feel so small and limited if we were always trying to optimize everything instead of logging on and doing whatever we felt like with whoever we felt like doing it with. If life lets us start playing regularly again you're welcome to come hang out with us sometime.

Danth

[Zuranthium]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It matters more than how you play, because that is not the norm. Sorry you don't understand this game.

LOL, you are hopeless. Nothing but idiotic fallacies. It's absolutely the norm for a significant amount of players to actively level faster and/or farm as much as they can in this game. And it's meaningless to argue about "norms", because that has nothing to do with the objective power level of what a class brings to the game. If an entire server decided not to use Charm, that wouldn't mean charm isn't a busted mechanic. It still would be.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Zuranthium [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

LOL, you are hopeless. Nothing but idiotic fallacies. It's absolutely the norm for a significant amount of players to actively level faster and/or farm as much as they can in this game. And it's meaningless to argue about "norms", because that has nothing to do with the objective power level of what a class brings to the game. If an entire server decided not to use Charm, that wouldn't mean charm isn't a busted mechanic. It still would be.

It's not a fallacy. It is fact. You can play this game pretty fast without optimizing your group. The only reason why you don't know this is because you have never played the game that way. That doesn't mean it isn't true, it just means you have little experience playing the game.

You basically just don't understand how DPS works in this game, so you overvalue it.