Best 4 person all caster/priest group

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is just your opinion. Your opinion does not dictate how everybody must play. If you cared about DPS, you would let your group DPS.

I cannot believe you keep arguing that DPS is always worth it, but somehow root/rotting in groups (to increase DPS) is not worth it.

It is contradictory.

This discussion is not about "how everybody must play", nor is it about what you can or cannot believe, so I am not sure what point you think you are making or what fact you think you are refuting, and since this discussion is - again - not about "how everybody must play" or what you can or cannot believe, the above Quote is simply an example of yet another irrelevant post from you.

This really isn't hard hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[PlsNoBan]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is just your opinion. Your opinion does not dictate how everybody must play. If you cared about DPS, you would let your group DPS.

I cannot believe you keep arguing that DPS is always worth it, but somehow root/rotting in groups (to increase DPS) is not worth it.

It is contradictory.

Lol alright man you win. Shaman is the best ever for everything. Root rotting adds in groups isn't retarded at all. Healing full hp targets is beneficial. More DPS is irrelevant. Warriors solo better than enchanters. You were right about all of it all along.

[PlsNoBan]

I guess one way to win arguments is refusing to give up and being so annoyingly obtuse that everyone else gives up talking to you. Not my preferred strategy but it's effective if you're willing to post complete bullshit over 1000 times like a psychopath

[Troxx]

Now that DSM has woken up anyone want to take bets what page we’ll be on by the time he goes to sleep again?

I think it’ll be ballpark of 340 at this rate. Maybe higher? What shall we celebrate page 400 with? I’m still thinking GiFs of The Office.

DSM has said nothing “new” in about 250 pages at this point. Minor tweaks? Sure. But nothing new other than having a pocket cleric around page 224 or so.

Anytime confronted with something that would change the mine of a sane person, his tactics are:

1) ignore it
2) redirect and distract
3) move the goalpost
4) or get the thread all in an unrelated tangent discussion ala #pocketCleric #warriorsSoloBetterthanEnchanters

[Troxx]

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[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess one way to win arguments is refusing to give up and being so annoyingly obtuse that everyone else gives up talking to you. Not my preferred strategy but it's effective if you're willing to post complete bullshit over 1000 times like a psychopath

Perhaps such behavior may indeed be a way to "win" arguments (I cannot quantify this since DSM has yet to provide the definition for "win" that he is using) but it is certainly not the way to have a civil discussion like a reasonable, responsible, mature adult who has math and logic on their side and is therefore capable of supporting their stance/positions/claims with relevant factual data/evidence, hehe. [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Now that DSM has woken up anyone want to take bets what page we’ll be on by the time he goes to sleep again?

I think it’ll be ballpark of 340 at this rate. Maybe higher? What shall we celebrate page 400 with? I’m still thinking GiFs of The Office.

DSM has said nothing “new” in about 250 pages at this point. Minor tweaks? Sure. But nothing new other than having a pocket cleric around page 224 or so.

Anytime confronted with something that would change the mine of a sane person, his tactics are:

1) ignore it
2) redirect and distract
3) move the goalpost
4) or get the thread all in an unrelated tangent discussion ala #pocketCleric #warriorsSoloBetterthanEnchanters

Well said! Whatever page # is reached, I will be here attempting to continue to do my part contributing to the civil discussion.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by PlsNoBan [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess one way to win arguments is refusing to give up and being so annoyingly obtuse that everyone else gives up talking to you. Not my preferred strategy but it's effective if you're willing to post complete bullshit over 1000 times like a psychopath

This is your strategy. The hundreds of troll/insult/meme posts prove this.

I will admit I am wrong if you can provide evidence to back up your claims.

You do not get to win a debate by trolling and simply dismissing anything that disagrees with you.

[cyxthryth]

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This is your strategy. The hundreds of troll/insult/meme posts prove this.

The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of what another's strategy is and what constitutes as "proof"; which are simply your opinions.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I will admit I am wrong if you can provide evidence to back up your claims.

The problem is that your post does not seem to identify any particular claims which (based on the above Quote) apparently in your opinion - which is, again, simply your opinion - require additional evidence provided (for some unspecified reason that you simply did not specify).

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You do not get to win a debate by trolling and simply dismissing anything that disagrees with you.

You have not provided the definition you are using for "win" or "troll"/"trolling". The above Quote is simply an example of you sharing your opinion of whether another poster "gets to win" (whatever that means - as, again - you have not provided the definition you are using for "win").

[Troxx]

Please forgive any minor grammar or spelling/wordswap issues. I’m on my iPhone (fucking autocorrect) and this will be long. I don’t feel like proof reading.

Attempt at honest discussion incomming …

I do find it funny that DSM places such a high value on redundant heals/utility for the sake of safety. Bear with me but let’s play along a shall we?

-Imagine you have a static camp of 27 mobs each with 8000hp.
-Mob respawn time is 27minutes
-camp isn’t hard. Mobs are loosely arranged. Some are single pulls/engages. Some come in 2s. Rare spot there are 3-4 you might have to deal with (cc/lull/FD split)

Without counting the actual mobs down there this is more or less crypt/emp. Unfortunately this caster group by definition cannot have a rog so once you’re down there you can’t do emp but can face pull some stuff through the emp door.

But for the sake of argument. There are 27 mobs.

100dps = 80 second kill time
200dps = 40 second kill time
300dps = 26 second kill time
400dps = 20 second kill time

Hang with me here. We are about to ruminate our head-walnuts and approach this not as concrete thinkers. We are going to engage in that thing DSM is incapable of abstract thought.

Concrete absolutes:

@100 dps (80 second kills): with zero down time to move or pull this group will kill at most 20 mobs per repop cycle. Factoring that you WILL have to move, pull, or whatever else you’re looking at realistically 17-18 kills due to time lost.

@200 dps (40 second kills): with zero down time you can kill all in 18 minutes! Knowing there will be down time and mobility moving around etc you’re probably looking more at all kills in 22ish minutes. This leaves you 5 mins of time between cycles/repops. If there is a named who is more resistant or has more hps or dps time was lost doing CC maybe add a minute or 2-3. Still even then you are done but now have 2-3 minutes of down time for repops.

@300 dps (26 second kills): with zero downtime you can kill it all in 11.7 minute. This leaves 15.3 minutes of down time. Knowing that you have to move around … let’s drop that to 11.3 minutes of down time. With naked or unexpected stuff? Take a way a few more minutes and let’s just say a solid 8-9 mins down time.

@400 dps (20 second kills): with zero down time all dead in 9. 18 minutes down time … wait no make that 14 for movement or maybe 12 for other stuff mentioned above.

OK GUYS CONCRETE BS IS DONE — let’s think abstractly.

Down time: it is good for the heart, soul, allows you to take a piss or look at some tantalizing pictures on the intrawebs of that’s what your heart desires. It gives you a moment to breathe, med up, refresh buffs. It allows you to make a sammich or grab another beer. It allows classes like mages to be freshly full mana with each cycle so they don’t have to get stingy on the nukes.

“Safety”: the shorter a fight, the less time for the fight to go wrong. If you drop your kill time from 80 sec to 40 sec to 26 sec to 20 sec … that’s a whole hell of a lot less time for the emergency situation to actually develop. If it does develop you exponentially reduce chance of catastrophe as the encounter is over so much faster. By killing faster; far less reason to even need that slow, extra root or heal. If mobs die faster less cleric mana use per mob - mana saved.

DPS doesn’t have a break point. Anyone capable of abstract thought can understand this. Even in a situation where you are limited by mobs (no more to pull) there is significant benefit in just getting things dead faster. More time to take care of basic bodily functions or just rest the eyes. It also markedly reduces risk because thing die so much faster … it’s why you never needed the extra heals, cc, or “utility” of the shaman.

What if the group is crawling around though? A place like seb is a veritable all you can eat buffet. If you want to move around the 400dps group will be getting literally twice as much xp loot compared to 200. 300 getting 50% more.

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Troxx [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Please forgive any minor grammar or spelling/wordswap issues. I’m on my iPhone (fucking autocorrect) and this will be long. I don’t feel like proof reading.

Attempt at honest discussion incomming …

I do find it funny that DSM places such a high value on redundant heals/utility for the sake of safety. Bear with me but let’s play along a shall we?

-Imagine you have a static camp of 27 mobs each with 8000hp.
-Mob respawn time is 27minutes
-camp isn’t hard. Mobs are loosely arranged. Some are single pulls/engages. Some come in 2s. Rare spot there are 3-4 you might have to deal with (cc/lull/FD split)

Without counting the actual mobs down there this is more or less crypt/emp. Unfortunately this caster group by definition cannot have a rog so once you’re down there you can’t do emp but can face pull some stuff through the emp door.

But for the sake of argument. There are 27 mobs.

100dps = 80 second kill time
200dps = 40 second kill time
300dps = 26 second kill time
400dps = 20 second kill time

Hang with me here. We are about to ruminate our head-walnuts and approach this not as concrete thinkers. We are going to engage in that thing DSM is incapable of abstract thought.

Concrete absolutes:

@100 dps (80 second kills): with zero down time to move or pull this group will kill at most 20 mobs per repop cycle. Factoring that you WILL have to move, pull, or whatever else you’re looking at realistically 17-18 kills due to time lost.

@200 dps (40 second kills): with zero down time you can kill all in 18 minutes! Knowing there will be down time and mobility moving around etc you’re probably looking more at all kills in 22ish minutes. This leaves you 5 mins of time between cycles/repops. If there is a named who is more resistant or has more hps or dps time was lost doing CC maybe add a minute or 2-3. Still even then you are done but now have 2-3 minutes of down time for repops.

@300 dps (26 second kills): with zero downtime you can kill it all in 11.7 minute. This leaves 15.3 minutes of down time. Knowing that you have to move around … let’s drop that to 11.3 minutes of down time. With naked or unexpected stuff? Take a way a few more minutes and let’s just say a solid 8-9 mins down time.

@400 dps (20 second kills): with zero down time all dead in 9. 18 minutes down time … wait no make that 14 for movement or maybe 12 for other stuff mentioned above.

OK GUYS CONCRETE BS IS DONE — let’s think abstractly.

Down time: it is good for the heart, soul, allows you to take a piss or look at some tantalizing pictures on the intrawebs of that’s what your heart desires. It gives you a moment to breathe, med up, refresh buffs. It allows you to make a sammich or grab another beer. It allows classes like mages to be freshly full mana with each cycle so they don’t have to get stingy on the nukes.

“Safety”: the shorter a fight, the less time for the fight to go wrong. If you drop your kill time from 80 sec to 40 sec to 26 sec to 20 sec … that’s a whole hell of a lot less time for the emergency situation to actually develop. If it does develop you exponentially reduce chance of catastrophe as the encounter is over so much faster. By killing faster; far less reason to even need that slow, extra root or heal. If mobs die faster less cleric mana use per mob - mana saved.

DPS doesn’t have a break point. Anyone capable of abstract thought can understand this. Even in a situation where you are limited by mobs (no more to pull) there is significant benefit in just getting things dead faster. More time to take care of basic bodily functions or just rest the eyes. It also markedly reduces risk because thing die so much faster … it’s why you never needed the extra heals, cc, or “utility” of the shaman.

What if the group is crawling around though? A place like seb is a veritable all you can eat buffet. If you want to move around the 400dps group will be getting literally twice as much xp loot compared to 200. 300 getting 50% more.

Killing things faster does increase safety. But having an extra healer also does this!

When the difference in kill speed is 4 seconds, there isn't much room for the mob to suddenly do something crazy.

An Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Shaman group is already easily capable of outputting 300 DPS. The difference between 300 DPS and 350 DPS (Enchanter/Enchanter/Cleric/Mage) is 4.3 seconds on a mob with 8000 HP. That means on a cycle with 20 mobs you are getting an extra 80 seconds AFK time on basically a 20 minute AFK as it is. I don't think anybody is going to care about that. I wouldn't. I'd much rather have a lower chance of wiping or having an emergency come up. 20 minutes is already enough to move and med back to full. Medding for 20 minutes gives you back 4000 mana (without C2), and most casters will have around 3000 mana with normal gear, so you don't need the full 20 minutes.

Because of 30 minute spawn times, you are not just getting more kills indefinitely. You keep assuming you will have a constant cycle of mobs, and that realistically isn't the case most of the time, unless you have the zone completely to yourself. But again, if that is the case, the Shaman can Root/Rot trash too for higher DPS.

You are just saying you prefer to have a few more seconds of downtime. That is a perfectly fine preference to have, but that does not mean it is objectively helping your gameplay. Again, nobody is saying you cannot prefer one thing over the other.