most underpowered class in game?

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Eh. Chants will tick for 56ish each w/epic, which is something like 30 DPS if you maintain three of them. That's if you can maintain them all, because while they do apply a resistance debuff, it's not exactly huge and plenty of things in the endgame will be immune to one or more of magic, fire and cold. Add the shitty melee on top and it might amount to 50 DPS.

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#8
Old 11-15-2011, 07:41 PM
Lazortag Lazortag is offline
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At level 60 assuming the tank has perfect aggro I can do about 68 DPS once my best dots have landed. In reality though if you're casting Angstlich's Assonance, Denon's Bereavement and Selo's Chords of Cessation on the same mob you're likely to pull aggro pretty quickly.
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Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

No, bards do not do real DPS.

That wasn't the argument being made. Bards aren't real CC either. Compared to other classes they aren't really anything, which is why there isn't a place for them in the class discussion section of these forums; they're lumped in with the melee classes for lack of a better choice, because they're a little bit of everything rolled into one. That was the argument. They're a jack of all trades. And, by definition, a jack of all trades wouldn't be capable of upper case DPS.

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's marginally higher than a paladin, and that's if the bard is doing nothing other than DPS, which is not a scenario that ever actually happens in reality.

But it likely has happened over the years and, more to the point, it could happen. If it can be done, that means there's versatility. A warrior can remain at the low health threshold for berserker frenzy damage. Will their damage be equal to the hasted enchanter pet? No, but it is an option if another tank is present. A necromancer can be the sole healer in a group. Will their heals be as powerful as a torp shaman's? No, but it is an option if no priests are available.

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ask a level 60 bard how big a percentage of his time is spent in DPS mode. He'll probably chuckle at you and recite a dirty limerick.

Again, it isn't a matter of how often it's done but whether or not it's an option. Besides, there are other less direct ways bards can contribute towards DPS. Charming one of two shadow knight mobs so both harm touch each other is an example of the creative DPS bards are capable of. Adding to their damage versatility...

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08-30-2021, 01:51 PM
Naethyn Naethyn is offline
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I’ve been fighting for damage shields for a long time. My biggest gripe is on raids with cleric groups demanding every available bard, instead of giving one bard to the tank group. Here is some rough math I’ve come up with to prove how little bards do for clerics in a dragon fight. For things unslowable it’s not even close, the bard will do 3 rogues of dps.

Bard produces 20 mana a tick.
20 mana a tick = 200 mana per minute
Complete heal = 350 mana
17.5 bard ticks = 1 Complete Heal
10 minute fight = 2000 mana
5 complete heals
7 minutes = 1,400 mana
1,400 mana / 350 = 4 CH
5 clerics * 4 CH = 20 CH per 7 minutes

Bard produces 61 damage shield.

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

As far as tanking goes, bards are on par with rogues. They get marginally higher HP and they can wear plate, but their parry and dodge skills cap significantly lower, so it's about equal. If you take a fully ToV-geared bard to tank the Hole, I'm sure it'll probably be fine.

The quote from the first reply came from a bard tanking before SoV's release, without any of the 100 raw hp gear from this expansion.

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Maybe you can come up with some fantastical scenario where there's a group in which the bard is forced to be the tank, and then it's probably better than having the fucking wizard do it. But in reality, it's not a thing that happens with any sort of regularity, and it certainly isn't good.

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Old 01-13-2014, 05:49 PM
Laok Laok is offline
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I like to think I'm pretty good at Bard. I played one on live for almost 10 years and got him to level 85. I played pre /melody and post. /melody was nice, but as was stated earlier, made bards easymode. There was a large influx of PL'ed bard alts that weren't very skilled and it got to be difficult to get a group because nobody wanted a dumpster bard.

...

I was tanking in CoM in my 40's with mediocre gear with a Shammy main healer. I have pulled, tanked, CC, snared, slowed, hasted and even main healed (Lots of downtime lol). Try mezzing 2 mobs while keeping agro on a third some time, it's fun in a twisted, massochistic kind of way lol.

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Old 03-24-2016, 11:34 AM
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Bards are literally the best at holding agro with three second single target and AE songs with tons of agro with no global cooldown, no mana cost, and can be used while moving around.

A decent bard can pretty much tank any dungeon, probably as good as or better than your typical stereotype tank. but once you get into a raiding situation the bard tanking situation ends once the deftdance wears off...

This of course applies to people who actually know how to play their bards. the majority that have only swarm kited thier entire lives will have no idea what i am talking about. And that is where the problems lies. Good luck finding a bard that knows how to play a bard.

I have tanked the kith general a few times on my bard, as well as offtanked some HoT trash when it was neccessary. I think that is getting about as far as you can take it.
Last edited by -Catherin-; 03-24-2016 at 11:39 AM..

Old 03-24-2016, 03:26 PM
Rygar Rygar is offline
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Sadly I agree with one poster that most bards leveled up swarm kiting and don't realize the true potential of their class, when I asked bards to tank groups (even post 50) they are like, "Umm... I'm a bard, I can't tank", to which I immediately face palm.

Bards are a plate class with some low capped defensive abilities, but awesome agro potential. I have seen a bard in the Hole tank, lull pull, song twist, and CC without issue.

Best Bard I've ever been with is Thald, dude seriously knows his class. He is spot on with adds, pulling, song twists, you name it. I recommend you ask him any questions, he probably can give you some serious tips.
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Old 06-10-2016, 12:45 PM
Troxx Troxx is offline
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Bards have reasonable AC but lack a lot on those secondary skills. Dodge caps low. Parry caps extra low at 75 and isn't available until 53. Riposte is achieved even later in the game and caps at 75 also. On top of that, bard hp pools are low compared to warriors and Knights.

Having said that, in good gear they actually tank decently. Aggro lock is simple, and before the mob is even in camp you can have it preslowed by22/23% to 35% depending on your level AND the real slower (if you have one) can slow very early in the fight without taking any hits.

Bards make stellar tanks on more trivial content. On moderate content they can manage without too many problems. In higher end content their defensive weaknesses start to show more obviously ... And on the hardest group able content they really don't hold up that well.

The vast majority of Everquest grouping content is a game of balanced attrition. In those scenarios you potentially save the healer mana with preslows (20-35% is a lot) and fast real slows where aggro doesn't bounce around.
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^ Argue the point with them.

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Bards are certainly useful in the one role that they inhabit, but they don't have the kind of versatility that lets them fill more than one role. They're pullers with mild CC and haste/resists/manasong. Stop pretending they're also DPS and tanks.

The AE snare/slow is reliable CC, much better in emergencies than bard mez/charm. It can derail trains and prevent wipes. The only risk comes from casters, but with everything moving slowly in lockstep, it becomes easier to target and mez/charm casters. The bard can keep mobs corralled, without getting hit, even in cramped rooms like KC basement. So if the enchanter dies, rezzes can go out and the group can remain in camp, picking off the casters and more resistant mobs.

Bards can provide CC or DPS. Bards can also tank. Pulling is probably the role that suits them best though.

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When was the last time you had a bard in your group and then invited another one, when it wasn't the only option available? Yeah? Yeah.

Two bards one group can be done and done well. Misconceptions about the class keep that from happening often. There also aren't a whole lot of bards and not many who would know how to make the best adjustments. I've seen a druid charm a pegasus in sky and get the group raid xp. Just because it doesn't happen often doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. Shadow knights don't typically pull on raids. Might that be because there's an overabundance of monks on the servers? Could SKs pull raid targets? Yes, and that's where their versatility lies beyond being tanks.

Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It's not like they're going to do ALL of those things in every group. The average XP group is so mind numbing that it's not worth it to give yourself carpal tunnel to squeeze an extra 1.5% xp per hour.

The average group is a PUG, with composition changing somewhat regularly. So while all of the abilities might not be used in every group, many of them will be used in one xp session.

Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The average XP group is so mind numbing that it's not worth it to give yourself carpal tunnel to squeeze an extra 1.5% xp per hour.

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Old 01-06-2015, 01:25 PM
zanderklocke zanderklocke is offline
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For me, it wasn't actually pushing keys. It was the mouse moving motion while holding down the right click button without releasing for so long. I dunno why people say twisting causes carpal tunnel; that's just pressing a key every 3 seconds.
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#7
Old 01-06-2015, 01:28 PM
Danth Danth is offline
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Twisting shouldn't cause carpal tunnel--the mouse is more likely to do that, as you say. However, excessive button spam can and does cause RSI-related injury instead. Both are issues any long-term player should be aware of.

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[arc]

Originally Posted by branamil [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The average XP group is so mind numbing that it's not worth it to give yourself carpal tunnel to squeeze an extra 1.5% xp per hour.

false gamer detected

[cd288]

Just to add to the replies to socialist, gauging a class's usefulness by whether you'd be happy having two of them in a group is moronic. The only people I'd be happy to have two of in a group is like maybe a Rogue or a Monk and only then when the other important roles are filled, maybe Enchanter if they're both willing to charm pets.

Other than that I don't need two of anything.

[Jimjam]

Having 2 bards in the group does solve the dilemma of whether to pump mana or pull.

[starkind]

Someone should do 6 bards fear kiting indoors. Or 5 bards 1 ranger.

Would be fucking hilarious.

[fugazi]

Originally Posted by starkind [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Someone should do 6 bards fear kiting indoors. Or 5 bards 1 ranger.

Would be fucking hilarious.

I did the fear-kiting thing with a mate on our bard/paladin duo. Amazing xp, and if you find the right spots, downright broken. Unrest, Kaesora, Tower of Frozen Shadow, Guk: all of it was doable and super good xp.

We're doing a bard/ranger combo now, untwinked for the extra challenge, and it's surprisingly solid. I'm not sure if an untwinked ranger can face-tank like a geared paladin can, so perhaps it will all come crashing down soon as we head into Mistmoore, Guk, and beyond [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[socialist]

I mean, you can literally do the math. Look up the numbers and add them up. EQ DPS is not some advanced science. If something ticks for X every 6 seconds, it does X/6 DPS. For three chants, add them together. Multiply for instrument modifier. That's the DPS of chants. There isn't any mystery to it. There's no debate. You have quoted demonstrably incorrect values that anyone can look up and see for themselves.

You're capable of fourth grade maths, right? Some idiot posting a number on Allakhazam a decade ago is meaningless. We know the numbers. We can add numbers together. Get with the program. Bards do not do real DPS, even if some imbecile in the Allakhazam comments from 2007 said he does great DPS. You know, I learned from the Allakhazam comments that if you sit too close to a mob's respawn point, it delays the respawn timer.

[cd288]

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean, you can literally do the math. Look up the numbers and add them up. EQ DPS is not some advanced science. If something ticks for X every 6 seconds, it does X/6 DPS. For three chants, add them together. Multiply for instrument modifier. That's the DPS of chants. There isn't any mystery to it. There's no debate. You have quoted demonstrably incorrect values that anyone can look up and see for themselves.

You're capable of fourth grade maths, right? Some idiot posting a number on Allakhazam a decade ago is meaningless. We know the numbers. We can add numbers together. Get with the program. Bards do not do real DPS, even if some imbecile in the Allakhazam comments from 2007 said he does great DPS. You know, I learned from the Allakhazam comments that if you sit too close to a mob's respawn point, it delays the respawn timer.

But again you're moving the goalposts. The whole discussion is that Bards are jacks of all trades master on none. They don't need to do tremendous DPS for that description to apply. That's the point

[Ennewi]

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I mean, you can literally do the math. Look up the numbers and add them up. EQ DPS is not some advanced science. If something ticks for X every 6 seconds, it does X/6 DPS. For three chants, add them together. Multiply for instrument modifier. That's the DPS of chants. There isn't any mystery to it. There's no debate. You have quoted demonstrably incorrect values that anyone can look up and see for themselves.

Angstlich's Assonance, Denon's Bereavement, and Selo's Chords of Cessation. Those were the dots quoted as doing 68 DPS and none those are chants. They benefit from brass and string mods, not percussion.

Originally Posted by socialist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You're capable of fourth grade maths, right? Some idiot posting a number on Allakhazam a decade ago is meaningless. We know the numbers. We can add numbers together. Get with the program. Bards do not do real DPS, even if some imbecile in the Allakhazam comments from 2007 said he does great DPS. You know, I learned from the Allakhazam comments that if you sit too close to a mob's respawn point, it delays the respawn timer.

Again, that wasn't the argument being made. You're capable of fourth grade reading, right?

[Ennewi]

As to which class is the most underpowered during this era, it's common knowledge what all classes are the least popular still (wiz, mag, etc.) and that is as good an indication as any. But the whole point of EQ was just that, not being overly powerful, not trivializing content. Even the more OP classes on p99 aren't nearly as powerful as the weakest classes in newer MMOs. Enchanters are still dependent on wizards to get to hate and sky. Shamans are still depending on magicians to get cothed to PoM click-in. Etc. And it could be argued that the least powerful classes are getting the most out of the game. Race/class xp penalties, night blindness, unremarkable disciplines all require the player to be creative and do more with less.