Monk Epic Fist... is it REALLY that good?

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Nordenwatch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Does double attack really work like this? I was under the assumption that even if double attack goes off, if the delay of the offhand hasn't been refreshed yet it wont swing with the SoS or AC or whatever you're using in your offhand. I'd have to assume this is the case, otherwise why would someone not use a wurmy in the offhand for the 25 dmg hit at epic fist speed?

Double Attack is not the same as Duel Wield, and Duel Wield is not tied to your primary anyway.

[Nordenwatch]

Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Double Attack is not the same as Duel Wield, and Duel Wield is not tied to your primary anyway.

Ah right, I confused them. The number of double attacks would be more for fists, but the strength of the attack itself would be stronger with the AC. Its hard to figure out which would be better, I mean its obvious that you'd rather have a double attack with a wep that hits harder, but it really depends on the dmg bonus...

Has anyone done parsing comparisons? If not I think I'm going to have to run some tests... anyone know a good parsing tool?

[Ele]

Originally Posted by Nordenwatch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ah right, I confused them. The number of double attacks would be more for fists, but the strength of the attack itself would be stronger with the AC. Its hard to figure out which would be better, I mean its obvious that you'd rather have a double attack with a wep that hits harder, but it really depends on the dmg bonus...

Has anyone done parsing comparisons? If not I think I'm going to have to run some tests... anyone know a good parsing tool?

GamParse

http://gambosoft.com/Pages/Downloads.htm

[Cippofra]

Imo the parsers dont tell you much. Even at high levels your damage is very inconsistent unless you can get measure it over a long battle with no chasing or moving around (like having people heal you while you wack at a high level guard). Just experiment with it and it'll be obvious. Everyone goes fist main hand unless they have a ridiculous weapon like the 16/22 sky items. In the situation you propose where you almost have a 1/1 ratio for both weapons, math/parsing/experimenting isn't even necessary. Obvious winner is the low delay fist.

[Nordenwatch]

Originally Posted by Cippofra [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Imo the parsers dont tell you much. Even at high levels your damage is very inconsistent unless you can get measure it over a long battle with no chasing or moving around (like having people heal you while you wack at a high level guard). Just experiment with it and it'll be obvious. Everyone goes fist main hand unless they have a ridiculous weapon like the 16/22 sky items. In the situation you propose where you almost have a 1/1 ratio for both weapons, math/parsing/experimenting isn't even necessary. Obvious winner is the low delay fist.

How is it obvious? The ratio for the AC is better. I experimented with it in HS (obviously not representative, but still) and AC/SOS seemed better than fist/AC. Its not obvious at all, if it was obvious I wouldn't be doing math and asking all these questions

[Ravager]

Priest of Discord would be the perfect mob to gamparse this info on. Just bring a cleric or shaman to heal you while you dps it down, it's a nice long fight and should give you the numbers you need.

[Treats]

Originally Posted by Nordenwatch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

For example: 15/25 (ac) or 17/28 (sos) is a .6 ratio and a .607 ratio respectively, while the epic fist is a .56 ratio. (9/16) And since the delay itself is larger, the reduction of time between swings is larger per haste percentage point. 1% of haste for a 9/16 wep is 0.08 delay off, while for a AC its 0.125 delay off.

This is not true. Think about what you are saying:

A 100 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by 5 seconds.

A 10 delay weapon with 100% haste would drop the delay by .5 seconds.

So because the 100 delay weapon dropped 4.5 seconds more then the 10 delay weapon it is better? No.

100/100 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
6 Swings per minute
210 * 6 = 1260 DPM

100/100 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage bonus
12 Swings per minute
210 * 12 = 2520 DPM

10/10 Weapon
No Haste
10 Damage Bonus
60 Swings per minute
30 * 60 = 1800 DPM

10/10 Weapon
100% Haste
10 Damage Bonus
120 Swings per minute
30 * 120 = 3600 DPM

You can see here the reduction time does not matter. The 100 delay weapon dropped by 4.5 seconds and the 10 delay weapon dropped by .5 seconds yet both of their DPM's have the same increase (doubled).

Here is what Copeland's shows:

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Wu's Tranquil Fist Primary (16/22)
1550 DPM
48 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Epic Fist Primary (9/16)
1516 DPM
66 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Adamantite Club Primary (15/25)
1308 DPM
44.24 Swings per minute

58 Monk
130 Strength
Epic + Cloak of Flames
Stave of Shielding Primary (17/28)
1268 DPM
37.71 Swings per minute

[webrunner5]

Pretty much settles that debate.

[Orruar]

Treats, it would appear that you believe all weapons have the same damage bonus. Is that based on anything? I thought weapons had a damage bonus that scaled with delay, meaning the AC would have a higher damage bonus than the ultra fast monk fist.

And based on the numbers you posted, it would appear the monk fist actually has more damage bonus than the ada club, and nearly equal db to the SoS. That doesn't seem right at all.

[Orruar]

Also in the numbers you posted, the swings per minute are not in proportion to the weapon delays. If the monk fist swings per minute is correct, then the ada club should be 39.6.