Class R and Poopsocks

[Erati]

^ Classic EQ, yes that was how you did it. Talked to the other guild present.

P99 a lil different with mob tier allocations displaying which group of people can go for what. So in OP's case the draco he would be referring to would already been set aside for AG via the class R rotation and thus there would most likely be zero complaints about AG being in the zone clearing trash when it spawns.

The only problem arises, as myself and Ravaak have pointed out, is when another guild is interested in draco and does not care about the player made agreement that they probably didnt agree to. So to them the rotation is just a word and draco is what they want.

When that is the situation, then AG most definitely is in the wrong for being in the zone and also going for draco when he pops, but that is only if another guild is coming in for the spawn.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by Troubled [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know if I'd break stone tablet rules no matter how many players agreed with it.

^^^

I'd personally have no issue with it

However, we must operate within server rules at all times.

We are not above server rules simply because we all agree on something.

Be mindful that you're breaking the server rule if doing something like this, and be ready to forfeit the encounter if you have a guild contesting you.

[Vlak]

But if the agreement/rotation has AG lined up for the draco kill, and they're in the zone waiting for spawn, I would think they have a more legit claim than a 3rd party who doesn't recognize the agreement/rotation.

Couldn't the classic "talking to the other guys" strategy still work? Even if the interloping guild is not on the rotation, could they not semi-insert themselves on it by joining up with already-clearing guild? True this messes up the loots, especially if both groups are after the same drop. But if the guilds are tiered then why not institute a "keying" system for up-and-comers who want a shot?

Ex: You want a shot at draco? Join an existing rotation member on a kill (pre-arranged or impromptu) and show you can handle it. Kill the draco, you get on the rotation, your guild moves up a tier (or progresses towards moving up a tier). Looting rights etc. would probably have to be case-by-case for these sorts of things, though, which would be a snag to work out.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by Vlak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But if the agreement/rotation has AG lined up for the draco kill, and they're in the zone waiting for spawn, I would think they have a more legit claim than a 3rd party who doesn't recognize the agreement/rotation.

Couldn't the classic "talking to the other guys" strategy still work? Even if the interloping guild is not on the rotation, could they not semi-insert themselves on it by joining up with already-clearing guild? True this messes up the loots, especially if both groups are after the same drop. But if the guilds are tiered then why not institute a "keying" system for up-and-comers who want a shot?

Ex: You want a shot at draco? Join an existing rotation member on a kill (pre-arranged or impromptu) and show you can handle it. Kill the draco, you get on the rotation, your guild moves up a tier (or progresses towards moving up a tier). Looting rights etc. would probably have to be case-by-case for these sorts of things, though, which would be a snag to work out.

The rotation guild still needs to abide by server rules. Our rotation is player enforced and not server rule. The GM's play no role in it other than ensuring we are playing by server rules. In the case that a guild on rotation is in zone waiting for their mob, and a 3rd party guild moves in post-spawn, the guild on rotation, by server rules, must forfeit the mob unless the 3rd party wishes to work with them or otherwise 'blesses' the encounter. Basically, both guilds would need to be in documented agreement that the rotation guild is OK to kill. If the 3rd party has issue with it and wants to engage the mob, it is the duty of the rotation guild to forfeit the encounter. Note this is still in violation of server rules, however, with no one arguing one side or the other it falls into a 'gray' area.

The entire point of the newer raid system was to lessen the load of the GM's and promote communication between guilds - guilds are to solve their own issues with other guilds, and only when this option is exhausted can it be taken to the GM's.


Rogean does not want us to have a barrier for entry on our rotation - we're an inclusive group - if a guild wants a shot, they get added to the rotation and they get their shot.

[drktmplr12]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

this summed it up quite nicely

Agreed.

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^^^
However, we must operate within server rules at all times.

We are not above server rules simply because we all agree on something.

Be mindful that you're breaking the server rule if doing something like this, and be ready to forfeit the encounter if you have a guild contesting you.

Its kind of a catch 22, because at the same time we are operating within the policy to work among ourselves to resolve disputes. This helps the CSR not be involved, which is the goal of the entire policy.

Originally Posted by Vlak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But if the agreement/rotation has AG lined up for the draco kill, and they're in the zone waiting for spawn, I would think they have a more legit claim than a 3rd party who doesn't recognize the agreement/rotation.

Exactly my point, as it stands a casual guild is penalized a hanging out in fear while their mob is in window. Now they can't clear for armor they actually need even though they have a capable group.

I'm not proposing a new rule to fit this situation, I just thought I would start a discussion regarding it because in the spirit of the rules (keep people happy while keeping CSR out of it) it is really fucking silly.

[drktmplr12]

Originally Posted by khanable [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Note this is still in violation of server rules, however, with no one arguing one side or the other it falls into a 'gray' area.

exactly what i'm trying to point out. you said it much better than i did.

[baalzy]

Here are some hypothetical scenarios and their potential outcomes.

Scenario 1:
AG is clearing PoF. Draco pops. AG kills. Nobody complains. AG is in the clear.

Scenario 2:
AG is clearing PoF. Draco pops. AG kills. Lord Bob 2.0 petitions. AG is 2 week raid suspended, loot is deleted.

Scenario 3:
BDA is clearing PoF. Draco pops. AG zones in and Kills. Lord Bob 2.0 petitions. BDA & AG are in the clear.

Scenario 4:
Lord Bob 2.0 is clearing PoF. Draco Pops. Bob 2.0 kills. A petition could be made which would cause a raid suspension of Bob 2.0 and delete their loot.

Scenario 5:
Lord Bob 2.0 is clearing PoF. Draco Pops. Bob 2.0 leaves because they're now ineligible. AG zones in and kills. Everyone is in the clear.

Scenario 3 is the safest way to have fear clear/semi-clear for AG to come in and take Draco. There is still the chance of a Bob 2.0 guild piggy backing on BDAs clearing and outracing AG to the pop, but there's no risk of AG being sanctioned for rule violation (assuming no training occurs).

[Kekephee]

Personally, if a mob belongs to a guild per the rotation and that guild wants to be in the zone when that mob spawns, I don't see any reason why it should be a thing. It's not like they're racing anyone to the mob and being in zone gives them an unfair advantage. Grind some exp in Seb before you go after Trakanon, by all means.

[arsenalpow]

It violates a server rule. No class based agreement can supersede a server rule. Being in zone when the mob spawns disqualifies a guild from chasing that spawn. Killing the mob could potentially prevent a group of individuals from going after it even if that group of individuals doesn't even exist currently.

I'd play it safe and be out of the zone when the mob spawns.

[Vlak]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

It violates a server rule. No class based agreement can supersede a server rule. Being in zone when the mob spawns disqualifies a guild from chasing that spawn. Killing the mob could potentially prevent a group of individuals from going after it even if that group of individuals doesn't even exist currently.

I'd play it safe and be out of the zone when the mob spawns.

OK, I really think this server rule is bunk. I get the essence behind the rule: keeps one top-tier guild from having a raid presence constantly hovering over a spawn point. However, especially when there's a rotation and it's already pre-determined (player side) that Guild A is going to take down this target, I see no reason why they should forfeit their chance at that mob based solely on the fact that they showed up early. Was there such a problem with guilds doing this permacamping of raid targets before the rule was written? (if so, then there's plenty of reason for this rule and I revise my opinion)

Rules are in place for two reasons: 1: to keep idiots from killing themselves doing or not doing things that are common sense. 2: to keep assholes from exploiting a system to the detriment of others. Can we just try to not be assholes and enjoy some freedom from lawyers?