Another Agility Thread

[Jimjam]

25% hp you have 75% agi, so 100 agi is super useful for that

20% hp you have 50% agi, so if you have 200 agi even better.

IDK if that changes by level or scales differently at different agi etc - just looking at the lvl 8 halfling war I am using atm.

It is also handy to have a truck tonne of agi (and str over encumberance) if you are fighting things that cast cripple. Like you want at least 150 to avoid penalty.

[Knuckle]

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only attempt I've seen to parse it was Meathookk's. His whole document is interesting; his agi summary is:



https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...d.php?t=389704

But he does find that pvp hit rate involves checking the attacker's dex vs the defender's agi. There's a part of me that thinks "it seems unlikely that the emulator would use different combat systems between pvp and pve; I should look carefully for an alternate explanation." For example, while his parse shows no difference between 180 and 230 agi against a cliff golem, maybe it is relevant against stronger or weaker npcs. That said, I haven't been chasing agi on any of my characters.

Ok I can actually legitimately step in here on this one. Null was a developer from the VZTZ PVP Server that came here during Red 99's heyday. I talked to him occasionally as I used to test spell resists and melee dmg with him from time to time prior to red. At some point when I wasnt even playing EQ I do recall him saying they wanted AGI to have a purpose in PVP and that it would translate to avoidance, so this fits perfectly.

[Knuckle]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

25% hp you have 75% agi, so 100 agi is super useful for that

20% hp you have 50% agi, so if you have 200 agi even better.

IDK if that changes by level or scales differently at different agi etc - just looking at the lvl 8 halfling war I am using atm.

It is also handy to have a truck tonne of agi (and str over encumberance) if you are fighting things that cast cripple. Like you want at least 150 to avoid penalty.

Yes I do understand the logic behind avoiding the sub 75 AGI penalties, but for my purposes of stacking AGI over AC the argument seems weak. based on the meathook parses I am confident in ignoring AGI beyond the bare minimum to avoid penalties as mentioned.

[Snaggles]

Originally Posted by Knuckle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yes I do understand the logic behind avoiding the sub 75 AGI penalties, but for my purposes of stacking AGI over AC the argument seems weak. based on the meathook parses I am confident in ignoring AGI beyond the bare minimum to avoid penalties as mentioned.

All agility arguments are by nature weak. Sounds like you figured it out.

If I had to guess, 99/100 people are wearing Ikky legs for fashion, not mitigation. You could raid in Wu’s armor (many did) and do just fine assuming you know what to do. People like to split hairs on p99 because we have years to raid the same content ad nauseam.

In a scenario where you could compare two players, one with 255 Agil and one with 100, the difference will not only be the agility. Further gearing for agil for the AC translated benefit will force someone to skip over other stats.

Most tanks don’t cap it with Focus, I’ve never asked for it with my knight. I’ve never given it with my shaman. Maybe there is someone out there looking for the last 20ac or whatever. I’m just not sure it’s gonna help much beyond a placebo.

[PestilentCancer]

Originally Posted by zelld52 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

agi doesnt have the same returns on mitigation as hard AC does.

Agility gives avoidance, not mitigation.

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

displayed AC is a weird kinda composite stat that sorta guestimates roughly your overall tankiness

Your displayed ac is a composite stat of "mitigation" and "avoidance". Mitigation ac is the raw ac from gear and buffs. It, basically, makes mobs hit you for less damage.

Avoidance comes from Agility, the Defense skill, and (possibly) Iksar ac bonus. It, basically, makes mobs "miss" you with melee attacks more often.

Originally Posted by busted [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

When you buff AGI, your AC stat bumps up. So it does *something*. Just not clear on how much it helps or if its the same/better than raw AC.

Agility gives you 1 avoidance ac for every 3 agility points, this is why you gain ac when your agility is buffed. Same with gaining more ac than you thought when putting on a piece of gear that has ac and agility on it. It is, very much, not the same as raw ac. Avoidance is definitely a bit tougher to get a lot of. I don't know about "better". Regardless, attacks missing entirely is pretty cool.

Originally Posted by Vivitron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only attempt I've seen to parse it was Meathookk's

maybe it is relevant against stronger or weaker npcs

Levels are a determining factor in how well your avoidance works. Red, Yellow, and even cons almost, ignore it. Xp viable blue cons, and lower, is really where it shines. With regards to the mentioned parse, cliff golems at 60 are too close to your level for accurate results. Not too mention, 180 agi to 230 agi is like 10 avoidance ac at best. Diminishing returns after 200, iirc. 180 agi to 200 is around 6 or 7 ac, 200 to 230 would be a negligible amount. 10ish more ac is better, but you will never see how much better it is against something that close in level.

Originally Posted by busted [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only person I've ever seen actually trying to parse this was Kankersaur

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYz1PVFbpAw

We need more people with parsers giving this a test

Hey! One of my crappy vids! I wish I still had Kank's old logs [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Would love to see some more parses, if anyone decides nerd out on it.

[Knuckle]

One day we will know the truth of agility in PVE. The exact formula. I wish we could do a heist. Because right now agility just pisses me off!

[astuce999]

Levels are a determining factor in how well your avoidance works. Red, Yellow, and even cons almost, ignore it. Xp viable blue cons, and lower, is really where it shines. With regards to the mentioned parse, cliff golems at 60 are too close to your level for accurate results. Not too mention, 180 agi to 230 agi is like 10 avoidance ac at best. Diminishing returns after 200, iirc. 180 agi to 200 is around 6 or 7 ac, 200 to 230 would be a negligible amount. 10ish more ac is better, but you will never see how much better it is against something that close in level.

This is the closest to truth I've ever seen it explained, well done!

Astuce

[Jimjam]

Steel Warrior forum discussion of agility.

Note this is AFTER the sol/pop revamp.

https://web.archive.org/web/20041214...php/t-379.html

 

What does Agi do for AC? Here you go.
Origianlly posted by Sylphan to various places.

Re: On determining AC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ok I finished the agility table.
Here's the full formula for AC:

Avoidance = (T from table) + trunc(Defense * 16/9), but never less than 0
Caster Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/3) + trunc(Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Anyone else's Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/4) + trunc(Defense/3) + trunc(Equipment * 4/3)
Displayed AC = trunc( (Avoidance + Mitigation) * 1000 / 847 )

Caster means Enchanter, Magician, Necromancer, Wizard.
Defense is the character's Defense skill.
Equipment is just the sum total of the raw AC from everything worn. Don't forget the range slot.
Buffs is the sum of the bonuses from all buffs. You'd have to check your spdat file to see those numbers, but for reference Skin Like Wood adds 15 and Skin Like Nature adds 55.
T comes from the agility table below, use the column corresponding to the character's level.
trunc means truncate, to remove the fraction; keep only the integer part of the value.

Some qualifications: Iksars get a bonus, I'm not sure how much but I suspect it might be adding (Level - 1) to Mitigation. The formula hasn't actually been tested on Beastlords or Vah Shir yet. The formula doesn't work for monks because of the weight limit thing, but it should work if they keep their weight under the limit. There is a 'never less than 0' issue with Mitigation too, but it only matters if you get hit with an AC debuff while wearing little or no equipment... it won't affect most people. The formula doesn't work right if your character has been drinking but it works in every other situation, including illusions, hunger, thirst, drowning, encumbered, low health, low stamina, stacked buffs and debuffs, and resurrection sickness. I have no proof that these are the actual Avoidance and Mitigation values, there isn't even any proof that Avoidance and Mitigation are ever used seperately in actual combat calculations... I just know that the first few factors are rounded up to 0 and are the same for all classes, so it seemed like a sensible division.


The table for T:

Level ..... -- 40+:20-39:7-19:1-6
---------------------------------
Agi 1...... ---24 :-24 :-24 :-24
Agi 2-3.... ---23 :-23 :-23 :-23
Agi 4...... ---22 :-22 :-22 :-22
Agi 5-6.... ---21 :-21 :-21 :-21
Agi 7-8.... ---20 :-20 :-20 :-20
Agi 9...... ---19 :-19 :-19 :-19
Agi 10-11.. ---18 :-18 :-18 :-18
Agi 12..... ---17 :-17 :-17 :-17
Agi 13-14.. ---16 :-16 :-16 :-16
Agi 15-16.. ---15 :-15 :-15 :-15
Agi 17..... ---14 :-14 :-14 :-14
Agi 18-19.. ---13 :-13 :-13 :-13
Agi 20..... ---12 :-12 :-12 :-12
Agi 21-22.. ---11 :-11 :-11 :-11
Agi 23-24.. ---10 :-10 :-10 :-10
Agi 25..... -- -9 : -9 : -9 : -9
Agi 26-27.. -- -8 : -8 : -8 : -8
Agi 28..... -- -7 : -7 : -7 : -7
Agi 29-30.. -- -6 : -6 : -6 : -6
Agi 31-32.. -- -5 : -5 : -5 : -5
Agi 33..... -- -4 : -4 : -4 : -4
Agi 34-35.. -- -3 : -3 : -3 : -3
Agi 36..... -- -2 : -2 : -2 : -2
Agi 37-38.. -- -1 : -1 : -1 : -1
Agi 39-65.. -- 00 : 00 : 00 : 00
Agi 66-70.. -- 01 : 01 : 01 : 01
Agi 71-74.. -- 05 : 05 : 05 : 05
Agi 75..... -- 39 : 33 : 23 : 09
Agi 76-79.. -- 40 : 33 : 23 : 10
Agi 80..... -- 41 : 34 : 24 : 11
Agi 81-85.. -- 42 : 35 : 25 : 12
Agi 86-90.. -- 42 : 36 : 26 : 12
Agi 91-95.. -- 43 : 36 : 26 : 13
Agi 96-99.. -- 44 : 37 : 27 : 14
Agi 100.... -- 45 : 38 : 28 : 15
Agi 101-105 -- 45 : 39 : 29 : 15
Agi 106-110 -- 46 : 39 : 29 : 16
Agi 111-115 -- 47 : 40 : 30 : 17
Agi 116-119 -- 47 : 41 : 31 : 17
Agi 120.... -- 48 : 42 : 32 : 18
Agi 121-125 -- 49 : 42 : 32 : 19
Agi 126-130 -- 50 : 43 : 33 : 20
Agi 131-135 -- 50 : 44 : 34 : 20
Agi 136-139 -- 51 : 44 : 34 : 21
Agi 140.... -- 52 : 45 : 35 : 22
Agi 141-145 -- 53 : 46 : 36 : 23
Agi 146-150 -- 53 : 47 : 37 : 23
Agi 151-155 -- 54 : 47 : 37 : 24
Agi 156-159 -- 55 : 48 : 38 : 25
Agi 160.... -- 56 : 49 : 39 : 26
Agi 161-165 -- 56 : 50 : 40 : 26
Agi 166-170 -- 57 : 50 : 40 : 27
Agi 171-175 -- 58 : 51 : 41 : 28
Agi 176-179 -- 58 : 52 : 42 : 28
Agi 180.... -- 59 : 53 : 43 : 29
Agi 181-185 -- 60 : 53 : 43 : 30
Agi 186-190 -- 61 : 54 : 44 : 31
Agi 191-195 -- 61 : 55 : 45 : 31
Agi 196-199 -- 62 : 55 : 45 : 32
Agi 200-219 -- 63 : 56 : 46 : 33
Agi 220-239 -- 64 : 57 : 47 : 34
Agi 240-255 -- 65 : 58 : 48 : 35


____________________________
____________________________
(Korak)My own personal observations:
Agility does not add to the "mitigation" portion of AC. So, in theory, it should allow you to avoid more hits. The mitigation portion being factored into an equation to determin n=1to20 in the DB+(1-20)DI, and the avoidance being factored into an equation to determine if you are hit. I believe the special skill checks (block/parry/dodge/riposte) are done sepatately and distinct from either of the other two computations. I can't link anything, but iirc testing has shown that riposte rates were constant regardless of mob. I really wish the two numbers were still displayed separately as that would allow for easier analysis. With carefully controlled and recorded tests (and a bit of math) it could be determined what effect agility has on hit rate. I suspect it is rather small, on the order of 1% in significance, since you are only talking about a 25pt increase in avoidance AC for going from 75agi to 240+ (unknown to me how it scales after 255). Therefore, situations might dictate that there are better uses for your buff slots. I still have too many other goals in the game to pursue such testing. Perhaps someone else will take up the banner.

The infamous agility t table.

[Knuckle]

Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Steel Warrior forum discussion of agility.

Note this is AFTER the sol/pop revamp.

https://web.archive.org/web/20041214...php/t-379.html

 

What does Agi do for AC? Here you go.
Origianlly posted by Sylphan to various places.

Re: On determining AC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ok I finished the agility table.
Here's the full formula for AC:

Avoidance = (T from table) + trunc(Defense * 16/9), but never less than 0
Caster Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/3) + trunc(Defense/2) + (Equipment + 1)
Anyone else's Mitigation = trunc(Buffs/4) + trunc(Defense/3) + trunc(Equipment * 4/3)
Displayed AC = trunc( (Avoidance + Mitigation) * 1000 / 847 )

Caster means Enchanter, Magician, Necromancer, Wizard.
Defense is the character's Defense skill.
Equipment is just the sum total of the raw AC from everything worn. Don't forget the range slot.
Buffs is the sum of the bonuses from all buffs. You'd have to check your spdat file to see those numbers, but for reference Skin Like Wood adds 15 and Skin Like Nature adds 55.
T comes from the agility table below, use the column corresponding to the character's level.
trunc means truncate, to remove the fraction; keep only the integer part of the value.

Some qualifications: Iksars get a bonus, I'm not sure how much but I suspect it might be adding (Level - 1) to Mitigation. The formula hasn't actually been tested on Beastlords or Vah Shir yet. The formula doesn't work for monks because of the weight limit thing, but it should work if they keep their weight under the limit. There is a 'never less than 0' issue with Mitigation too, but it only matters if you get hit with an AC debuff while wearing little or no equipment... it won't affect most people. The formula doesn't work right if your character has been drinking but it works in every other situation, including illusions, hunger, thirst, drowning, encumbered, low health, low stamina, stacked buffs and debuffs, and resurrection sickness. I have no proof that these are the actual Avoidance and Mitigation values, there isn't even any proof that Avoidance and Mitigation are ever used seperately in actual combat calculations... I just know that the first few factors are rounded up to 0 and are the same for all classes, so it seemed like a sensible division.


The table for T:

Level ..... -- 40+:20-39:7-19:1-6
---------------------------------
Agi 1...... ---24 :-24 :-24 :-24
Agi 2-3.... ---23 :-23 :-23 :-23
Agi 4...... ---22 :-22 :-22 :-22
Agi 5-6.... ---21 :-21 :-21 :-21
Agi 7-8.... ---20 :-20 :-20 :-20
Agi 9...... ---19 :-19 :-19 :-19
Agi 10-11.. ---18 :-18 :-18 :-18
Agi 12..... ---17 :-17 :-17 :-17
Agi 13-14.. ---16 :-16 :-16 :-16
Agi 15-16.. ---15 :-15 :-15 :-15
Agi 17..... ---14 :-14 :-14 :-14
Agi 18-19.. ---13 :-13 :-13 :-13
Agi 20..... ---12 :-12 :-12 :-12
Agi 21-22.. ---11 :-11 :-11 :-11
Agi 23-24.. ---10 :-10 :-10 :-10
Agi 25..... -- -9 : -9 : -9 : -9
Agi 26-27.. -- -8 : -8 : -8 : -8
Agi 28..... -- -7 : -7 : -7 : -7
Agi 29-30.. -- -6 : -6 : -6 : -6
Agi 31-32.. -- -5 : -5 : -5 : -5
Agi 33..... -- -4 : -4 : -4 : -4
Agi 34-35.. -- -3 : -3 : -3 : -3
Agi 36..... -- -2 : -2 : -2 : -2
Agi 37-38.. -- -1 : -1 : -1 : -1
Agi 39-65.. -- 00 : 00 : 00 : 00
Agi 66-70.. -- 01 : 01 : 01 : 01
Agi 71-74.. -- 05 : 05 : 05 : 05
Agi 75..... -- 39 : 33 : 23 : 09
Agi 76-79.. -- 40 : 33 : 23 : 10
Agi 80..... -- 41 : 34 : 24 : 11
Agi 81-85.. -- 42 : 35 : 25 : 12
Agi 86-90.. -- 42 : 36 : 26 : 12
Agi 91-95.. -- 43 : 36 : 26 : 13
Agi 96-99.. -- 44 : 37 : 27 : 14
Agi 100.... -- 45 : 38 : 28 : 15
Agi 101-105 -- 45 : 39 : 29 : 15
Agi 106-110 -- 46 : 39 : 29 : 16
Agi 111-115 -- 47 : 40 : 30 : 17
Agi 116-119 -- 47 : 41 : 31 : 17
Agi 120.... -- 48 : 42 : 32 : 18
Agi 121-125 -- 49 : 42 : 32 : 19
Agi 126-130 -- 50 : 43 : 33 : 20
Agi 131-135 -- 50 : 44 : 34 : 20
Agi 136-139 -- 51 : 44 : 34 : 21
Agi 140.... -- 52 : 45 : 35 : 22
Agi 141-145 -- 53 : 46 : 36 : 23
Agi 146-150 -- 53 : 47 : 37 : 23
Agi 151-155 -- 54 : 47 : 37 : 24
Agi 156-159 -- 55 : 48 : 38 : 25
Agi 160.... -- 56 : 49 : 39 : 26
Agi 161-165 -- 56 : 50 : 40 : 26
Agi 166-170 -- 57 : 50 : 40 : 27
Agi 171-175 -- 58 : 51 : 41 : 28
Agi 176-179 -- 58 : 52 : 42 : 28
Agi 180.... -- 59 : 53 : 43 : 29
Agi 181-185 -- 60 : 53 : 43 : 30
Agi 186-190 -- 61 : 54 : 44 : 31
Agi 191-195 -- 61 : 55 : 45 : 31
Agi 196-199 -- 62 : 55 : 45 : 32
Agi 200-219 -- 63 : 56 : 46 : 33
Agi 220-239 -- 64 : 57 : 47 : 34
Agi 240-255 -- 65 : 58 : 48 : 35


____________________________
____________________________
(Korak)My own personal observations:
Agility does not add to the "mitigation" portion of AC. So, in theory, it should allow you to avoid more hits. The mitigation portion being factored into an equation to determin n=1to20 in the DB+(1-20)DI, and the avoidance being factored into an equation to determine if you are hit. I believe the special skill checks (block/parry/dodge/riposte) are done sepatately and distinct from either of the other two computations. I can't link anything, but iirc testing has shown that riposte rates were constant regardless of mob. I really wish the two numbers were still displayed separately as that would allow for easier analysis. With carefully controlled and recorded tests (and a bit of math) it could be determined what effect agility has on hit rate. I suspect it is rather small, on the order of 1% in significance, since you are only talking about a 25pt increase in avoidance AC for going from 75agi to 240+ (unknown to me how it scales after 255). Therefore, situations might dictate that there are better uses for your buff slots. I still have too many other goals in the game to pursue such testing. Perhaps someone else will take up the banner.

The infamous agility t table.

That's cool but we would need confirmation if P99 are using a post POP agi table.

[Jimjam]

On live they have split AC into avoidance and mitigation.

Interestingly, while using a monster shroud if you spend monster AA on Agi your shroud’s mitigation improves. Dunno whether that is just a shroud thing, a modern eq thing or what. I just thought it was neat [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]