People that never played classic EQ

[Stormlight]

I think people call it "hard" because it's a simple way to describe it, even though it doesn't do a very good job. EQ doesn't pander to you the way most MMOs do, so you have to work more. People actually care if they die in EQ. Experience loss and travel time mean you have to be more careful when you're deep in a dungeon. This type of thing is what they mean when they say it's hard. Hardcore is a more appropriate term probably.

[Nirgon]

Some people are bad @ the game.

Some worse than others.

Skill involved?

[Velerin]

hah, this "hard" discussion comes up everytime. Fighting in eq is not hard, end game is not hard, even the slow progression is not hard. However, it's basically the only game I've ever played where death is such a huge consequence and actually scary (talking about actually in 1999 not now playing). We know so much about the game now, death is much more avoidable. I remember on live my first main was a necro and I was stuck on 34/35 for like 2 weeks (no more book!, death, back to book, no more book!, death repeat). Now I rarely die outside of raids.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Stormlight [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think people call it "hard" because it's a simple way to describe it, even though it doesn't do a very good job. EQ doesn't pander to you the way most MMOs do, so you have to work more. People actually care if they die in EQ. Experience loss and travel time mean you have to be more careful when you're deep in a dungeon. This type of thing is what they mean when they say it's hard. Hardcore is a more appropriate term probably.

I have another way of describing it. Did anyone here play the old nintendo games from the 80's and early 90's? The ones where you'd play and die repeatedly, trying to figure out the way to beat a level? And you had to redo the WHOLE level when you died? That's kind of like what EQ is for an MMO.

It's kind of like throwing a noob into an arena with other veteran opponents and strong but hungry lions. The noob WILL die oftener than if they were up against noob opponents and weak (but presently well fed) lions. If one supposes that the strategies one can learn in the arena are the same irregardless of veteran or noob opponents then one is much closer to defining what EQ is trying to do. In effect, all that one can learn to avoid death is squeezed into a much smaller space, so the time a player has to learn them in order to prevent death is very small. This means the inevitable result is a lot of deaths.

Peolpe who don't like these games will descrbie them as "If you didn't die you'd beat the game in a week." These people want challenge which is based on intelligence, not threat.

So when people say EQ is hard they mean the THREAT is higher, thus, the need to be aware of what's going on is higher. They do not mean the game requires more intelligence.

Of course, EQ can be very tedious when camping something. That's probably when EQ shows its worst. When camping becomes a science, all threat is gone, and thus the whole reason for EQ being fun is also gone. EQ's threat meter is highest when you're delving into a dungeon and moving around, not staying in one place. And this is even more true if you're going to NEW places, as opposed to ones you already know well.

To like a game like htis one must want THREAT, not necessarily intellectual challenges. I'd compare this to climbing cliffs WITHOUT gear versus just playing basketball. While basketball is probably more intellectually and socially challenging, climbing cliffs without gear is more of a THREAT.

I am saying the principle difference between this game and modern MMO's is death has a much higher consequence. You can lose hours of time in terms of experience and travel time. There're even cases where you'll be unable to retrieve your corpse without a lot more help then is currently available to you. The game does not have more things to learn, but the threat level is increased.

Thbis is kind of like hte "hardcore" characters in Diablo 2. Death was permanent.

[Glenzig]

Golf is harder than football. Football is more dependant on strength and agility and fast reflexes, for that reason some may say that it takes more skill than Golf. But golf is just harder.
Its far more simplistic than football. Hit a ball into a hole in as few swings as possible.
But it is way harder to hit that stupid ball I to that stupid hole than it is to throw a football 40-50 yards, or catch said pass.
Its just harder. Its just one of those things.
That's how EQ is for me verses other MMOs. Its just harder.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Glenzig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Golf is harder than football. Football is more dependant on strength and agility and fast reflexes, for that reason some may say that it takes more skill than Golf. But golf is just harder.
Its far more simplistic than football. Hit a ball into a hole in as few swings as possible.
But it is way harder to hit that stupid ball I to that stupid hole than it is to throw a football 40-50 yards, or catch said pass.
Its just harder. Its just one of those things.
That's how EQ is for me verses other MMOs. Its just harder.

There's also the aspect that to gain good experience in EQ you generally have to group up with others. This could also be what some players mean when they say "harder". Note that "good experience" isn't necessarily the group experience bonus, but the reduction in deaths because of having more utility or having access to a rezzer or porter or having someone who knows what they're doing. . Saved time = more experience.

But just working with others doesn't mean the game is more intellectual chalenging. A solo game can have just as mcuh intellectual challenge as a group game. I see no reason to discriminate. Although maybe group games come more naturally because w'eve worked with each other for millions of years.

[stormlord]

But I think my ultimate oipinion is most players say EQ is "hard" because of the temporal losses suffered after dying. Whether it's the experience or the lost time due to your bind point being far away from where you died or it's your corpse stuck deep inside a dungeon or you didn't /loc before you died.

We all know that feeling when we die: "DAMN!" That's why we think it's hard. We feel that familiar pain and then the "Why didn't I do XYZ? I'm stupid!! F*** it!" Takes a while to cool down. Sometimes go afk. The ones who stay long term are the ones who WANT this feeling. They want the THREAT.

We're the oens who respond wel to being slapped on the wrist by the teacher. Without the slap, we just lose interest. I don't think we're masochists. I think we're lazier than normal and need the slap. Maybe I"m being too optimistic? Going back to the analogy I made earlier to people who climb cliffs without equipment, maybe the THREAT makes things feel more immersive to us? Meh, I still think it wakes us up.

I think we're the same kind of players who want negative consequences in games too. We want to be slapped when we fail. Again, it's the whole threat thing. We want bad choices to increase the threat. It's not all about learning with us, otherwise these games we play would have too much downtime/dying.

[Fael]

I've afk liched myself to death probably 10 times on my necro.

Is it hard to not lich yourself to death? Does it take skill? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The penalty for failure is ten times harder than any other game. Particularly when it happens while I'm in hs north by myself, and it's noon on a Tuesday, and I have to go naked and without water into hs to find a sperm to get the key then go find my corpse and drag it to the zone line. Then I got to wait for someone to zone in for a Rez which won't happen for hours to try to talk someone to come help me out.

That's what makes eq hard. It's not forgiving on those who make imprudent decisions, which is almost everyone.

Dolic

[quido]

I never played EQ or any MMO before P99. I knew people who were into EQ and then WoW, but I always just preferred less committal games like D2 and Counterstrike. My friend suggested P99 to me in its infancy, and since I didn't have anything to do for a number of weeks, I said "fuck it." I guess I haven't really looked back much since.

I like how on a server like this you have to wear your reputation. Games like CS and D2 have too many anonymous jackasses.

[Xorekle]

No instancing, makes a true mmo; starting to feel this more and more. Your reputation lives and dies with you, quite literally, nothing to go hide it in.