So how about that Zimmerman trial?

[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He's not a mere "obnoxious busybody". He's a lethally armed obnoxious busybody -- a distinction which does carry with it not enough responsibility.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by Barkingturtle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

He's not a mere "obnoxious busybody". He's a lethally armed obnoxious busybody -- a distinction which does carry with it further responsibility.

no, from a legal standpoint, it doesn't.

the fact that he was carrying a weapon does not in any way impact his rights before or during the confrontation. he was within his rights to follow martin, armed or not. he was within his rights to ask what he was doing, armed or not. and upon being assaulted, per his statements, he was within his rights to use deadly force once he was being physically harmed and feared for his life

the fact that he had a weapon is mostly irrelevant up until he actually fired it. it doesn't alter anyone's responsibilities or rights

[Frieza_Prexus]

Originally Posted by Daldolma [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you're ascribing a level of responsibility to zimmerman that has no foundation in law. even if he knew that being an obnoxious busybody could lead to violence, he isn't liable for that violence simply for being obnoxious. and even if he could have potentially escaped without killing trayvon, he's not required to try. as soon as he felt his life was in danger, he was justified to use deadly force.

+1

This trial is not about policy, it's about determining his liability under the law (in theory, at least).

Under Florida law and the current evidence on record with the court, he is in no way the legal instigator of the crime, and even if he was, self-defense is still on the table as a valid legal defense.

Let's assume that even IF Zimmerman walked up and threw the first punch, the moment he expressed a clear desire to withdraw, he regained the right to use self-defense, which in this case, likely included the use of deadly force within the right of self-defense. In most cases, screaming for help on the ground fits that bill.

Fights can be thought of like a boxing match or a jousting tilt. Every single "fight" happens in clashes and stutters. The moment you have a certain level of separation (to be determined by the facts) a "new" fight starts. Yes, you can run up to a guy, punch him, and then say "wait wait I don't want to fight I'm leaving," and if he hits you back, he is also guilty of battery. It's an oversimplification, but the point is the same. Even if Zimmerman was looking for a fight, the law and the record supports an acquittal. Escalation is also a "new" fight. If someone slaps you and you pull a knife, you are the aggressor.

Originally Posted by Daldoma

if trayvon lived to testify to the above, he'd be going straight from the hospital to prison

+2 Daldoma.

It might seem counter-intuitive, to some, that you can't make some kind of stand, but the underlying policy is that you get back at someone by suing them or having them arrested for their crime. Your remedy lies elsewhere. Self-help and force is ONLY allowed to the extent reasonably necessary to prevent harm imminent to you. The record and the law both support Zimmerman's story. The prosecution seems to be failing at meeting its burden.

No one's really trying to pat Sheriff George on the back for what happened, but one must acknowledge the legal realities. No amount of indignation will change what happened. A lot of people are using this case as an opportunity to discuss what they feel are shortcomings within the legal system. That's fine, but when you refuse to acknowledge the reality of a situation, you make your side look less and less credible. If a person is truly interested in making a positive change in our legal system, they should first demonstrate good faith by pulling their fingers out of their ears.

[Rhambuk]

I wonder how many people are going to Follow zimmerman around at night trying to get him scared enough to "threaten" the follower. Then they can just pull out a gun and shoot him.

street justice

[Samoht]

Originally Posted by Alawen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can carry a gun, follow you, shoot you, and then the burden of proof is on a prosecutor to establish that I wasn't defending myself?

here's the facts: that's not quite what happened. there was a string of break-ins in the neighbourhood, so they stepped up their neighbourhood watch. zimmerman started packing. he spotted one of the thieves and really wanted to bust him.

here's where it's zimmerman's word: the thief ran away and hid, and then ambushed zimmerman when zimmerman turned to return to his car. the thief started beating him and threatened his life. zimmerman capped him.

live like a thug, die like a thug.

[moklianne]

Originally Posted by Samoht [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

here's the facts: that's not quite what happened. there was a string of break-ins in the neighbourhood, so they stepped up their neighbourhood watch. zimmerman started packing. he spotted one of the thieves and really wanted to bust him.

here's where it's zimmerman's word: the thief ran away and hid, and then ambushed zimmerman when zimmerman turned to return to his car. the thief started beating him and threatened his life. zimmerman capped him.

live like a thug, die like a thug.

Or (and too bad Martin isn't alive to say this), someone was following me, he didn't identify himself as a police officer, so I ran and hid. He looked white to me at first so maybe he had it out for me. This neighborhood is mostly whiteys. If this guy wants to hurt me, I'm going to defend myself. I'm tired of always watching what I say or do around the man.

[Daldolma]

Originally Posted by moklianne [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Or (and too bad Martin isn't alive to say this), someone was following me, he didn't identify himself as a police officer, so I ran and hid. He looked white to me at first so maybe he had it out for me. This neighborhood is mostly whiteys. If this guy wants to hurt me, I'm going to defend myself. I'm tired of always watching what I say or do around the man.

if trayvon lived to testify to the above, he'd be going straight from the hospital to prison

[moklianne]

Originally Posted by Alawen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not really following this case, but I'm confused. I can carry a gun, follow you, shoot you, and then the burden of proof is on a prosecutor to establish that I wasn't defending myself? Is all of the self defense evidence coming from the killer's testimony? This seems like really bad precedent.

Thus the issue with Stand your Ground.

[Hasbinfat]

Originally Posted by Alawen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not really following this case, but I'm confused. I can carry a gun, follow you, shoot you, and then the burden of proof is on a prosecutor to establish that I wasn't defending myself? Is all of the self defense evidence coming from the killer's testimony? This seems like really bad precedent.

When you word it like that, it sounds bad, but it's really the only way that is fair.

The prosecutors are charging him with second degree murder, so the burden of proof is on them to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was murder. If you are going to charge someone with something, you better have enough evidence to prove it.

If Zimmerman's team is able to lawyer out of the charges with dumbshit trickery, contrived self-defense scenarios, and other fringe evidence, that just means the prosecution had shit for evidence.

What would you do instead?

[Rhambuk]

the "justice" system is fuckin bullshit....