religion

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by Toofliss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Where do I start? I'll try to reply paragraph by paragraph. I thought I plainly stated that you've put your faith in the theory of evolution (including the gaps to which we don't currently have answers) as the way in which all things came about. Am I skeptical of that? Of course...but truth be known, I'm not rock solid in my faith as a Christian. But if I'm forced to choose between the two (because school forces one down your throat while openly declaring war on alternatives) then I choose my current stance, that there is overwhelming evidence that someone/thing put all these rules into place. It's too much for me to swallow that the rules of our sandbox is mere chance.

Mostly skipping 2nd paragraph, good to see that at the very least you'd be open to blatant evidence. I'd be the same way with God or the theory of evolution. The point I'll make with this paragraph is that you're comfortable believing this theory. That to me is your faith. I see that as less probable than alternatives.

Now the third paragraph you dive off the deep end. Immoral? It's immoral that I put my faith in something you think less likely than your choice? If new facts come about that completely shatter the theory of evolution, could I call you immoral because you believed it? Yes, I am thankful for science. I was by no means eager to believe in a supreme being. 20+ (I'm mid 30s, not including baby years here) years I would have sided with you and said that God was a fairy tale. It was only after some deep observation of the world around me and trying to rationalize what I think is more probable that I came to my current belief system. The astonishing arrogance in this thread has come from those who claim to know the answer. No one knows...we're still trying to figure it out. In the meantime, you want to silence opposition to your side of the argument. We're immoral in our thinking and must be stopped. We can't spread our 'disease' of thought. I questioned everything for years and continue to do so. This is why I often wonder if I'll ever progress to be solid in my faith as a Christian and instead move towards some other belief (haven't googled the right term for it) where I believe in a creator even if it's not God as presented in the Bible.

Here is my question to you. Until all of the gaps are filled and the doubt is removed, can we stop teaching both in school? Teach the FACTS as we currently know them and let kids come to their own realization. Stop filling in the gaps with what we 'think' must have happened, yet have no firm proof to back up. Let them question everything without preconceived notions as to which one is right and which one can't possibly be. I think deep down both sides of this argument know that we won't know 100% for certain until we're six feet under. Imagination is a great thing for innovation and science. What if some child with a wild imagination someday comes up with a crazy thought that eventually unravels the matrix we live in and leads to the answers we've all missed due to our preconceived notions as to which side is right/wrong? Maybe he is able to positively disprove God and your side can be giddy with joy, but if you have him chasing the never-to-be-found answers to the theory of evolution he may miss it all together.

You know, I keep seeing arguments like this and I can't help but wonder why there aren't more creationistic evolutionists (God gifted all life with the ability to adapt and change over time on an ever changing earth) around asking "por que no las dos?".

[Toofliss]

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You know, I keep seeing arguments like this and I can't help but wonder why there aren't more creationistic evolutionists (God gifted all life with the ability to adapt and change over time on an ever changing earth) around asking "por que no las dos?".

I wasn't very warm to some of your other comments, but this is a great question in my eyes. I think it's a prime example of what our current education breeds. What if the current options being presented aren't all of the choices? We tend to shut down creative thinking in our current factories we call school.

That idea has some merit in my eyes and I'm disappointed I haven't given it more thought. Something I'll have to mull over.

[KagatobLuvsAnimu]

Originally Posted by Toofliss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wasn't very warm to some of your other comments, but this is a great question in my eyes. I think it's a prime example of what our current education breeds. What if the current options being presented aren't all of the choices? We tend to shut down creative thinking in our current factories we call school.

I post from my phone at work during the afternoon hours. The user interface with this board is gawdawful to say the least, couple that with the fact that fuck swype, I'm sorry if some of that frustration channels its way into my replies at some level.

Originally Posted by Toofliss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That idea has some merit in my eyes and I'm disappointed I haven't given it more thought. Something I'll have to mull over.

It's a question I've asked creationists for nearly a decade, often the somewhat open minded ones across various faiths (even a devout Romney supporting Mormon in one case) respond, hmm, maybe. Others on the other hand (Every Jehova's Witness I've ever asked) shake their head nope nope nope like I had just whipped out my dick and asked if they wanted a suck.

Interestingly enough this is something the current pope had suggested roughly a year ago, when he said that science and Christianity need not be mutually exclusive. Though it's worth noting that the current pope has several masters degrees including but not limited to, biological sciences.

[RobotElvis]

Originally Posted by Dior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Fixed it for you Holy Robot Elvis that came back to the living.

Originally Posted by KagatobLuvsAnimu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I post from my phone at work during the afternoon hours. The user interface with this board is gawdawful to say the least, couple that with the fact that fuck swype, I'm sorry if some of that frustration channels its way into my replies at some level.

It's a question I've asked creationists for nearly a decade, often the somewhat open minded ones across various faiths (even a devout Romney supporting Mormon in one case) respond, hmm, maybe. Others on the other hand (Every Jehova's Witness I've ever asked) shake their head nope nope nope like I had just whipped out my dick and asked if they wanted a suck.

Interestingly enough this is something the current pope had suggested roughly a year ago, when he said that science and Christianity need not be mutually exclusive. Though it's worth noting that the current pope has several masters degrees including but not limited to, biological sciences.

Theistic evolution implies that there is teleology involved in the process of evolution.
But that goes against the accepted model of evolution, because if we are to say that the organs of the body evolved for a final cause then there would be apparent design in the evolutionary process.
And design requires intelligence.

[Dior]

Originally Posted by RobotElvis [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Theistic evolution implies that there is teleology involved in the process of evolution.
But that goes against the accepted model of evolution, because if we are to say that the organs of the body evolved for a final cause then there would be apparent design in the evolutionary process.
And design requires intelligence.

Actually, evolutionary biology doesn't run contrast to theists ideas of the world. God is simply the catalyst for everything. Theists want to add an extra step.

Evolution is a biological process. It has nothing to do with cosmology or philosophy, which is what the whole god talk is about.

But you knew that already I'm sure.

Now, who created god since design requires intelligence?

[Glenzig]

Originally Posted by Dior [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Actually, evolutionary biology doesn't run contrast to theists ideas of the world. God is simply the catalyst for everything. Theists want to add an extra step.

Evolution is a biological process. It has nothing to do with cosmology or philosophy, which is what the whole god talk is about.

But you knew that already I'm sure.

Now, who created god since design requires intelligence?

That has already been answered.

[Dior]

Originally Posted by Glenzig [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That has already been answered.

No. It hasn't. It was sidestepped and avoided.

A++ for effort. Next time put some more sarcasm in your comment. That seems to really work for your arguments.

[iruinedyourday]

Originally Posted by Toofliss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wasn't very warm to some of your other comments, but this is a great question in my eyes. I think it's a prime example of what our current education breeds. What if the current options being presented aren't all of the choices? We tend to shut down creative thinking in our current factories we call school.

That idea has some merit in my eyes and I'm disappointed I haven't given it more thought. Something I'll have to mull over.

on the subject of education, I don't understand why people that are upset that evolution is taught in science class arnt fine with there just being a religious studies class as an anthropological type of study where you learn of all religions instead of teaching people specifically about a christian believe, namely creationism.

Asking that creationism be taught in school is asking that the christian specific religion is taught in school, and asking for it to be taught in science class is asking for it to be taught in totally the wrong arena.

You are free to believe in evolution, and god. Unfortunately there are extremely right wing Christians that dont believe that is possible. They are drawing the line, where most scientists would agree, that you are free to believe in religion as much as you like, so long as you don't let it interfere with your scientific endeavors.

It doesn't got that way with creationists. Creationism isn't a science and it doesn't belong in schools not devoted to teaching the specifics of christian theology.

[Toofliss]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

on the subject of education, I don't understand why people that are upset that evolution is taught in science class arnt fine with there just being a religious studies class as an anthropological type of study where you learn of all religions instead of teaching people specifically about a christian believe, namely creationism.

Asking that creationism be taught in school is asking that the christian specific religion is taught in school, and asking for it to be taught in science class is asking for it to be taught in totally the wrong arena.

You are free to believe in evolution, and god. Unfortunately there are extremely right wing Christians that dont believe that is possible. They are drawing the line, where most scientists would agree, that you are free to believe in religion as much as you like, so long as you don't let it interfere with your scientific endeavors.

It doesn't got that way with creationists. Creationism isn't a science and it doesn't belong in schools not devoted to teaching the specifics of christian theology.

The THEORY of evolution still has many gaps. Theories have been proven wrong or had to be rewritten numerous times throughout history. Until we can close the gaps and stop putting faith in the areas where we 'think' we know what happened, why is that taught as THE answer?

There are plenty of people who have put together evidence of a creator. Some super intelligent being that was able to put together the sandbox in which we currently live. Could I label it as the THEORY of creationism? Sure, there are some gaps. But just look past those, because with enough time we'll find what we need to fill in those gaps. In the meantime, just trust me - I'm really smart, and I'm a scientist.

"Asking that creationism be taught in school is asking that the christian specific religion is taught in school, and asking for it to be taught in science class is asking for it to be taught in totally the wrong arena. "

Who said anything about that? Look at my past posts, I'm admitted that I'm not solid on my faith in being a Christian. And teaching Christianity isn't what I would ask for in science class. How certain are you that there wasn't some super intelligent thing/it that put all of this together? Is that really harder for you to believe than the random chance that all these observable laws in our sandbox just 'happen' to be? If you want to talk miraculous, that would be it -- just by chance, all of these laws work together to sustain this environment/life? That's the biggest coincidence I've ever been asked to swallow.

Little closer to the sun, little further away, little different climate...oops, no life and no Earth. We're just super lucky that it happened this way? We can observe gravity and many other natural laws. We take it for fact because time and time again we can test them and they behave the same way. Have you ever stopped to ask WHY they work this way? How fucking lucky for us! Pure coincidence.

Maybe God is a bunch of aliens who are laughing their asses off watching us try to figure it out. Maybe The Matrix (movie) is right, maybe we're all just a computer program and none of this is real. But to honestly reflect on all of the perfection around us and say that it's impossible that some super intelligent thing created this setting -- I can't really believe that you're being honest with yourself if you can dismiss it that easily. In fact, I find that more probable than mere coincidence. Many of my anti-God friends explain away so much by the term coincidence, but just how far can you go to think that this is all mere chance/luck?

[Toofliss]

Originally Posted by iruinedyourday [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are free to believe in evolution, and god. Unfortunately there are extremely right wing Christians that dont believe that is possible. They are drawing the line, where most scientists would agree, that you are free to believe in religion as much as you like, so long as you don't let it interfere with your scientific endeavors.

It doesn't got that way with creationists. Creationism isn't a science and it doesn't belong in schools not devoted to teaching the specifics of christian theology.

I felt the need to reply to this part in particular. How many times and how many amazing laws must we uncover before we have enough proof that something beyond our comprehension must have come up with all of these laws. How arrogant are we as a species to think that there is nothing we can't comprehend. Nothing is too complex that we can't understand it. Don't get me wrong, I fully support constantly looking for explanations for the world in which we live but I've come to accept that we'll never fully understand it all.

That along with what I see as overwhelming evidence for there being some greater being that put all of this together in perfect harmony leads me to believe in a creator. If I'm intellectually honest, I find that less of a stretch than some of the explanations currently found in science textbooks for the origin of life.