Socialized Medicine - Let's Discuss!

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've had people from Canada tell me if you want to make good money in the health care industry in their country, you don't become a doctor you become a dentist. I don't know how true that is but I can imagine their doctors don't make anywhere near the money ours do. Again, not talking about the local friendly family doctor, I'm talking specialists in the big hospitals.

Would love to elaborate and enlighten you on how dentistry works and how much of a cash cow it can be when practiced poorly. The more uncaring, reckless, and shitty you are at being a dentist the more dental care you can sell.

I was victimized from about age 14 to age 18 I'd say? I was given 6-7 huge invasive fillings for absolutely no reason. No visible decay of any sort, no problems of any sort prior to getting told I have "cavities" lol.

When I realized I had been taken for a ride and they had done incredible damage to my teeth (heavy drilling to place highly invasive amalgam mercury fillings in. For "cavities" that didn't exist outside of the dentists imagination (X-rays were clean) Preventative dentistry is a joke, the drilling is the most damage the tooth will take without actual visible decay being detectable. The drill process is known as traumatic dentistry (as opposed to atraumatic dentistry, which is the non-evil, non-greedy form of dental care (known as ART, google it). As you can imagine ART is not very popular...not enough churn and burn $$$. They joke in dental school "Drill baby drill" and other stuff I've heard as the more damage you do, the more money you stand to make.

12 years later, without a single dental visit in 12 years. Perfect teeth, proving my hypothesis correct that I was being taken for a ride. Pearly whites, aside from the highly invasive and toxic amalgam mercury filling restorations on a few molars that are inoperable (I'd love to get them removed, but the safety standard doesn't exist at this time, and there is no applicable protocol. Its considered a plastic procedure to remove mercury from your mouth according to the ADA, FDA, and AMA at this time).

I can't go into any more detail (I.E. how dentists create cavities) unless big j holds my hand, as it was already very tough to write this. I absolutely loathe the dental industry having seen how it operates, and what it can do to someone (poison and intentional creation of cavities).

It sends me to a dark place.

[Karkona]

the part about dentists messing around with teeth, happened to my wife, but she from europe. Dentists are corrupt.

[AzzarTheGod]

Originally Posted by Karkona [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the part about dentists messing around with teeth, happened to my wife, but she from europe. Dentists are corrupt.

Fortunately for me, I caught on very early and got off relatively easy.. despite the scam, the work done was considered "very good" by dental standards outside of 1 place on my lower left.

But in my teenage years I listened to my parents and thought I was doing the right thing.

Some day I will find the doctor and operating center who can safely remove 1 or 2 of these mercury bombs. I had been evaluated for a removal at a center but the removal doctor was pretty adamant about the fact that 1 tooth will require a root canal/extraction due to the damage already done.

I am over the allowable limit by just 1 or 2 fillings. If I had 3-4 I wouldn't care because studies prove it is within the acceptable mercury limit according to urine tests in most people (there are exceptions).

[Pokesan]

I liked Keker better

[JurisDictum]

Its pretty simple debate.

One side says: look at how it works well all over the world. Its cheaper with same health outcomes and everyone gets covered. No country wants our system after all.

and the other side tries to cherry pick as much data they can to cast doubt on this. They have a religious belief that the free market solves all problems. And by pointing out that free market doesn't solve all healthcare problems -- they get defensive and unreceptive to evidence.

[MrSparkle001]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Its pretty simple debate.

One side says: look at how it works well all over the world. Its cheaper with same health outcomes and everyone gets covered. No country wants our system after all.

"Cheaper" is the operative word here, because it won't be cheaper here in the US. Our health care is ridiculously expensive and the costs are held hostage by the pharmaceutical industry and health care professionals making an incredibly high income charging astronomically enormous fees (the ones that aren't are your friendly neighborhood family practice doctors).

The cost of health care will not be reduced to reasonable levels by insuring everyone. I don't know why people think it will. All that insuring everyone does is ensure the insurance companies remain profitable and doctors, hospitals and big pharma continue to make big bucks.

(I'm aware there are doctors and hospitals that are exceptions and don't make big bucks so no need to mention them. Those hospitals also tend to suck and you wouldn't want to be treated there.)

Until health care isn't a major business it will continue to be prohibitively expensive. Until doctors aren't interested in becoming incredibly high paid specialists that extort insurance companies almost criminally with their fees, until medical malpractice lawsuits are reined in, until hospitals aren't primarily interested in turning hefty profits, until big pharma is more interested in the quality of human life over making huge profits, we will have overly expensive health care in this country.

I've had people from Canada tell me if you want to make good money in the health care industry in their country, you don't become a doctor you become a dentist. I don't know how true that is but I can imagine their doctors don't make anywhere near the money ours do. Again, not talking about the local friendly family doctor, I'm talking specialists in the big hospitals.

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

"Cheaper" is the operative word here, because it won't be cheaper here in the US. Our health care is ridiculously expensive and the costs are held hostage by the pharmaceutical industry and health care professionals making an incredibly high income charging astronomically enormous fees (the ones that aren't are your friendly neighborhood family practice doctors).

The cost of health care will not be reduced to reasonable levels by insuring everyone. I don't know why people think it will. All that insuring everyone does is ensure the insurance companies remain profitable and doctors, hospitals and big pharma continue to make big bucks.

(I'm aware there are doctors and hospitals that are exceptions and don't make big bucks so no need to mention them. Those hospitals also tend to suck and you wouldn't want to be treated there.)

Until health care isn't a major business it will continue to be prohibitively expensive. Until doctors aren't interested in becoming incredibly high paid specialists that extort insurance companies almost criminally with their fees, until medical malpractice lawsuits are reined in, until hospitals aren't primarily interested in turning hefty profits, until big pharma is more interested in the quality of human life over making huge profits, we will have overly expensive health care in this country.

I've had people from Canada tell me if you want to make good money in the health care industry in their country, you don't become a doctor you become a dentist. I don't know how true that is but I can imagine their doctors don't make anywhere near the money ours do. Again, not talking about the local friendly family doctor, I'm talking specialists in the big hospitals.

The first obvious reason why a government single payer would be cheaper is that they don't have to make a profit (on a publicly traded company that competes with all stocks).

Single-payer health insurance lowers costs by:

1) reducing administrative expenses

2) not authorizing ineffective, cosmetic or "all-natural" healthcare,

3) reducing the prices paid for medical labor, devices, and drugs.

Its easier to make hospitals/doctors charge less when they all have one insurance company that says they will pay x. They don't have insurance that is only for young healthy professionals that pays way more for the same thing. The government pays x, and there's only so much extra most are willing to pay on top of that.

It's not like the people in other countries are better an gentler than Americans. Our doctors make more because the system allows them to -- not because Americans are more greedy.

[maskedmelon]

Seeing as we've been unable to move this issue beyond a moral argument. Let's discuss that. It seems to me that 'care for all' is embraced unenthusiastically, because the ideal solution is unpalatable. I don't understand why a hands off solution is worse though when you consider the damaging effects that subsidizing failure has on humanity.

[MrSparkle001]

Originally Posted by JurisDictum [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The first obvious reason why a government single payer would be cheaper is that they don't have to make a profit (on a publicly traded company that competes with all stocks).

Single-payer health insurance lowers costs by:

1) reducing administrative expenses

2) not authorizing ineffective, cosmetic or "all-natural" healthcare,

3) reducing the prices paid for medical labor, devices, and drugs.

Its easier to make hospitals/doctors charge less when they all have one insurance company that says they will pay x. They don't have insurance that is only for young healthy professionals that pays way more for the same thing. The government pays x, and there's only so much extra most are willing to pay on top of that.

It's not like the people in other countries are better an gentler than Americans. Our doctors make more because the system allows them to -- not because Americans are more greedy.

Maerilith is banned again?

Anyway, the biggest problem with this (especially #3) is it encourage current doctors to leave their practices because they now make less money and would discourage others from becoming doctors.

I've heard that from quite a few doctors over the past few years. Some already refuse medicaid patients because medicaid does not pay them enough.

I'm not saying that's what should happen. I would love a world where people pursued medicine for the good of humanity. But that's not reality. If doctors feel they aren't being paid enough by the government they may stop practicing, and if students considering a career as a doctor feel they won't make enough, they won't pursue it. That's reality and it needs to be considered.

Health care costs in this country are entirely too high, but we can't just cut payments to doctors and hospitals and not expect consequences like that.

Just something to consider that often isn't.

[JurisDictum]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I've heard that from quite a few doctors over the past few years. Some already refuse medicaid patients because medicaid does not pay them enough.

but what if they didn't have that option?

IDK to tell you dude, people bitch when their current way of making money drys up. They also are probably right that the current system -- that pays way more for people with "good insurance" -- will allow them to make more money. So they are going to bitch and say "ill do x and y." hardly any of these people are going to get new careers at the end of the day.

People don't become doctors for money. I've seen people that want to be doctors for the social esteem and respect, but not for money. Most doctors that make a lot of money -- make their money from investments and clinics that they own. They have a high wage and all, but that's after what? 10 -16 years of school/training? And your not going to be getting any big bonuses...

If you have the kind of intelligence and support to become a doctor -- you could easily go into business, tech, or law and make more money. But most people that become doctors want to be doctors.