Enchanter charm isn't classic, we all know this

[Ligma]

I would submit you're just mad/bad

[d-tron]

Here's a cool thread from June 2001 on caster's realm about enchanters discussing charm tactics:

https://web.archive.org/web/20010630...c&f=9&t=004889

[Rooj]

Originally Posted by d-tron [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here's a cool thread from June 2001 on caster's realm about enchanters discussing charm tactics:

https://web.archive.org/web/20010630...c&f=9&t=004889

Dabbling in this thread got me thinking about some things.

I've noticed a lot of these old threads that talk about charming don't often bring up the exact mob that they are charming. It's usually just what the mob conned to them. However it seems that mobs did in fact have their own numerical resist values just like players. So,

1. It's obviously impossible for us to determine numerical Resists for any mob, other than ones we know were 100% MR. Reading through some old threads you get some pretty opposite spectrum responses, with some people claiming how easy it was to charm and others saying charms were spam breaking. So I think it's possible that people who weren't successful were trying to charm higher MR mobs, and those who were successful were maybe charming low MR mobs.

2. What ARE resists set to on P99? Sadly we'll likely never know.

3. Don't caster mobs cast Resist Magic on themselves and nearby mobs?

4. Does Tash/Malo overwrite Resist Magic?

5. What effect could having negative resists have on the formulas? (for example, in an early patch note they fixed a bug where negative resists were showing up as 255)

[Teppler]

I can’t remember any mob ever casting MR on themselves and I don’t believe malo/Tash overwrites.

[Vizax_Xaziv]

Originally Posted by Teppler [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I can’t remember any mob ever casting MR on themselves and I don’t believe malo/Tash overwrites.

I think he's inferring that different mobs have different BASE MR values (not referring to buffs)

EDIT: Well my point stands. DO different mobs have different innate magic resistance values?

[Teppler]

Originally Posted by Vizax_Xaziv [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I think he's inferring that different mobs have different BASE MR values (not referring to buffs)

3. Don't caster mobs cast Resist Magic on themselves and nearby mobs?

[Prova]

Of all the things that emulators did well, resists I feel like resists and mob AC were a huge guess. The HP values were largely known, but AC seems to almost entirely be a function of level and resist for most things is base zero. It feels like the scale with level and the chance to break on duration are totally finger in the air. This isn't exactly a knock, I don't know that the information is out there to get this stuff right. But assuming that the way it is right now is classic just because we don't have enough detail to change it seems a bit naive.

[Tecmos Deception]

Like I said Lor. I'd love to see someone take the widely-disseminated guides and general "it is known, khaleesi" type of knowledge you can find scattered around casters realm and zam forums and stuff, and play a chanter on p99 like that while also trying to maintain a charm.

If they can do that and show me the video of them playing like a classic chanter was told to by everything they could find anywhere while still ripping shit up with a monster charmed pet, I'll walk back all my defense of charm being similar here to on live.

I'm confident I can't play like a classic chanter, even if you permit a perfect internet connection, while charming a group's worth of DPS like people are yelling about, let alone while soloing a high end named camp.

And again, this is still looking past a lot of issues that I believe were roadblocks: camp availability in the first place for classic era chanters to ever get much time trying to solo something like freeti, the number of chanters who reached max level before the next xpac brought new content being far lower than on here (especially on blue during out 5-year kunark, haha), etc.



Maybe I'll motivate to death loop Noman to 50 and strip him of clickies and some of his gear and go try to solo something on blue with classic-era strategies and put the video up. I'm like 50% sure just no GCD clicky by itself will make it difficult enough to not be a reasonable use of time.

Yuck. It'll take me some effort to get motivated for that though cause I'll need to reorganize his spell book besides just binding next to a guard at the nfp/wfp zoneline for a few hours. Lol.

[loramin]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Like I said Lor. I'd love to see someone take the widely-disseminated guides and general "it is known, khaleesi" type of knowledge you can find scattered around casters realm and zam forums and stuff, and play a chanter on p99 like that while also trying to maintain a charm.

If they can do that and show me the video of them playing like a classic chanter was told to by everything they could find anywhere while still ripping shit up with a monster charmed pet, I'll walk back all my defense of charm being similar here to on live.

So let's try taking Enchanters out of the picture, for a moment, and let's talk about ... Druid charming!

I charmed on my Druid here, just about exclusively until 45. I did twink him out with a Goblin ring at some point, but I also charmed for a level or two without it first. I never used -MR gear or a GCD clickie (well, I got when he was 60 but that's irrelevant).

I absolutely understand what a huge difference that ring makes. But even so, without it, and without -MR gear or an insta-click item, I got a level or two, and it was still significantly faster than root/rotting.

Now look, I get that message boards were a double-edged sword: they shared info, but they also encouraged a certain "herd mentality". This lead to "wisdom" being passed on to newer players, and some very small percentage of the time that "wisdom" may have missed a relevant detail and been wrong.

Case in point: every Shaman (on the forums) knew to Cann-dance. But none knew to use a Shrunken Goblin Ring to spam click Cann once you got Torpor. Relatively few shaman even got to 60 (in classic), only a few of them had Torpor, and relatively few players overall even understood global cooldown resets.

-MR gear, goblin ring, GCD resets ... all of that is equivalent (in the GCD case, directly) to Shaman Cann-dancing when they should have been GCD reset-ing.

But charming a mob, having it fight another mob, and then casting invis on yourself to break it? Without any other item or mechanic, that's a valuable strategy (again, faster than root/rotting, the established approach for Druids). It's widely practiced here, but it wasn't on live.

I can't prove with evidence that it's absolutely, certainly, a sign of a missing mechanic here. And I couldn't have proven it with Bards AoEing in OT: I'm no AoE expert, and every Bard defender said "it's a classic mechanic, people just didn't realize they couldn't do it on live, we're smarter here".

But does the incredibly different amount of even base-level, no tricks charm fighting here vs. live ... does it truly "smell" like just ignorance, and not a sign of any other hard-to-pin-down mechanic being off, which makes the technique more effective here than it was on live?

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But does the incredibly different amount of even base-level charm fighting here vs. live truly, honestly, "smell" like just ignorance, and not possibly the sign of any other hard-to-pin-down mechanic (like charm resists) being off?

Not to me.

But I can't really answer what it smells like with a blank slate because I mained a chanter on live who spent most of his time charm soloing to level, and when in groups also charmed (but at a reduced clip during classic era compared to luclin and pop). Lol.