Where did EQ Live go wrong?

[Mardur]

Luclin was the first mixed bag expansion. All of Kunark and Velious were generally entertaining, but with Luclin came the dumb cat race, the dumb bazaar, the dumb teleportation system, and dumb zones like Paludal and Vex Thal. I generally like it though because AAs were awesome and Ssra was when raiding really took off.

Planes of Power was the same way. Plane of Knowledge was retarded, but the raiding progression (minus the endless backflagging at first) was EQ at its finest.

I quit playing twice in GoD (original and first progression servers) because the theme of the expansion really nerfed my class (shaman). It's hard going from being slightly OP Kunark -> Velious to completely OP Luclin -> PoP to poor buff/heal bot in GoD. Shaman weren't nerfed directly, but the content shift to low hp high dps mobs doesn't mesh well with slows and insane mana regen. Compare that to a fight like Seru that can last 20-60 minutes, where a single shaman can heal the raid, cure curses, keep slow up, and still be on top of damage charts by the end. Also Uqua really crushed the spirits of any raiding guild I was in because it was just so damn hardcore. I still have a lot of respect for GoD because of just how difficult it was, but that expansion is still pretty much the end of EQ for me.

What class you played had a lot to do with it I think. You can't be a shaman and hate AAs because some of those abilities were completely game changing like Canni 5 which was like obtaining an FT200 item and Virulent Paralysis which let you solo literally any mob in the game that didn't summon.

[Nagash]

Originally Posted by Mardur [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Luclin was the first mixed bag expansion. All of Kunark and Velious were generally entertaining, but with Luclin came the dumb cat race, the dumb bazaar, the dumb teleportation system, and dumb zones like Paludal and Vex Thal. I generally like it though because AAs were awesome and Ssra was when raiding really took off.

Planes of Power was the same way. Plane of Knowledge was retarded, but the raiding progression (minus the endless backflagging at first) was EQ at its finest.

I quit playing twice in GoD (original and first progression servers) because the theme of the expansion really nerfed my class (shaman). It's hard going from being slightly OP Kunark -> Velious to completely OP Luclin -> PoP to poor buff/heal bot in GoD. Shaman weren't nerfed directly, but the content shift to low hp high dps mobs doesn't mesh well with slows and insane mana regen. Compare that to a fight like Seru that can last 20-60 minutes, where a single shaman can heal the raid, cure curses, keep slow up, and still be on top of damage charts by the end. Also Uqua really crushed the spirits of any raiding guild I was in because it was just so damn hardcore. I still have a lot of respect for GoD because of just how difficult it was, but that expansion is still pretty much the end of EQ for me.

What class you played had a lot to do with it I think. You can't be a shaman and hate AAs because some of those abilities were completely game changing like Canni 5 which was like obtaining an FT200 item and Virulent Paralysis which let you solo literally any mob in the game that didn't summon.

Did you read my mind? You just wrote, almost word for word what I wanted to post. I was playing a shammy too and felt exactly the same way as you about this too.

[stormlord]

I'd have to say mudflation. It destroys old content. And then companies try to replace said content with a mediocre effort. It's usually something like 3-5 pieces of content for every 20 pieces of old content. It's also much faster experience to boot. The goal is to level up players. They also do this because they want to have updated graphics and mechanics. Since it would be a lot of work to update all of the old content, they almost always choose to just make something new. And for the same reason that it's too much to update, it's also too much to replace 1 to 1, so it's usually much less than what was previously offered. Most MMORPGs are guilty.

I could say this for every MMORPG. The answer is probably a diverse one. But the way I'd go about doing it is to prepare in advance and to have methods ready when population or dynamics change. For example, the people who designed Anarchy Online never thought it would last beyond 4 years. So their design included this expectation. Most MMORPGs make disposable content and do not intend on ever updating most of it.

And something else is when companies shift their ideas... (explained below)

Anarchy Online had a very robust design concept early on that removed a lot of grind from the gameplay. You could solo your way to max level. There was much less downtime. But then they saw how successful EQ was and decided to make the Shadowlands expansion. They wanted to pull players from EQ and have a more open world feel to things. Shadowlands depended a lot more on groups (teams) and added more downtime and did not have a grid or many of the other characteristics associated with AO in its earlier evolution. As a result, the expansion was mostly a failure. AO failed its audience and did not anticipate changing trends. This is another thing that MMORPG companies do time and time again and it usually has bad consequences.

Companies succeed when they do it right the first time. When they do it afterward it usually just fractures the community and doesn't mesh well with the rest of the game. Eve-Online is a exception. My advice to companies is KNOW WHO YOU ARE and be comfortable with your own skin. It's good to learn from others and it's good to try to attract players from elsewhere, but if you lose yourself in all the mess then you'll lose your players too. In the end, a company needs some confidence in itself. Do not look at what others do TOO MUCH. Be yourself.

I guess this is similar to what people call "vision". The problem with vision is it can be terribly wrong. While it does give a creator confidence and can keep a good idea going for a long while, it can also cause a bad idea to stubbornly stick around. So I am unsure whether to say a company or a group of developers should have a "vision". If Anarchy Online had had a vision and kept it then maybe they never would have made Shadowlands. Maybe they would have expanded on their original ideas rather than abandoning them. But it could also have turned out bad. Maybe they would have held onto something that did not work and could not persevere. Bottom line, a company should not let its vision and confidence blind it, but neither should it shift around too much.

[BrandeX]

Originally Posted by stormlord [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I guess this is similar to what people call "vision". The problem with vision is it can be terribly wrong. While it does give a creator confidence and can keep a good idea going for a long while, it can also cause a bad idea to stubbornly stick around. So I am unsure whether to say a company or a group of developers should have a "vision". If Anarchy Online had had a vision and kept it then maybe they never would have made Shadowlands. Maybe they would have expanded on their original ideas rather than abandoning them. But it could also have turned out bad. Maybe they would have held onto something that did not work and could not persevere. Bottom line, a company should not let its vision and confidence blind it, but neither should it shift around too much.

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[Ryndar]

GoD

Finding shit more powerful than the GODS themselves living on Norrath the whole time was kinda stupid to me.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Originally Posted by Ryndar [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

GoD

Finding shit more powerful than the GODS themselves living on Norrath the whole time was kinda stupid to me.

umm its not stupid if you keep in mind that they came from a different realm, where "animals are more powerful than your gods" to quote Mata Muram.
Plus, Inny/CT were already complete wussies by the time Velious raiding was out. So yeah, shit stronger that gods was pretty common since classic time.

[Daldaen]

Yes, because planets cannot have moons that orbit them with a feline-humanoid species in them... in a fantasy game?

[webrunner5]

The main problem was they got rid of the need for Porters and Crack dealers. Druids, Wizzys, and Enchanters. Luclin expansion I think killed pretty most all of it. I think Bazaar was both a good and bad thing. Mostly bad.

Then the Merc's got rid of the the need for Healers. So the need for anyone in a group went to poop. So everyone 4 boxed to hell and back. They made a pot for every thing. And started the Marketplace. So now you spend more money buying XP and Haste pots a month then the cost of the game. Pretty smart of Sony!!!

[Noselacri]

The game tried to be too mainstream, but it didn't have a mainstream playerbase. WoW did and succeeded with that model, but it didn't suit Everquest. EQ was about the spirit of the game, the world and the community. It's why people tolerated sitting in the same camp for six hours at a time, day after day. It's why people accepted that some levels could take weeks. It's why it was okay that others could interfere with your ability to raid. Then they took away the reason why these things were acceptable, so they had to change those things as well, and in the end the game just wasn't recognizable.

Instances were good because the game needed it at the time, but it would have been better to keep the game like it was back when instances weren't necessary. I think they started to approach this problem even in late Velious, though - raid gear was too far ahead of tradeable gear, but only a tiny percentage of the population had access to it. There wasn't enough content for the whole server, but it was no longer possible for those with access to it to spread the rewards around.

Suddenly there was only one way to be someone: join a serious raid guild. There used to be that, then trading, and finally being good at playing the game, since gear didn't make quite so much of a difference. As the endgame gear started to become vastly superior and available only to the elite, the majority lost their reason to play the game. Instead, SoE tried to make everyone an elite, but it just made everything feel so underwhelming and pointless. By then, the game had lost the integrity that makes people care about it, so most left.

[lawll]

Originally Posted by Noselacri [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

EQ was about the spirit of the game, the world and the community. It's why people tolerated sitting in the same camp for six hours at a time, day after day. It's why people accepted that some levels could take weeks. It's why it was okay that others could interfere with your ability to raid. Then they took away the reason why these things were acceptable, so they had to change those things as well, and in the end the game just wasn't recognizable.

People only stuck with EQ because nothing was remotely close at the time. The mass exodus after wow came out pretty much says thats what the players wanted in a mmo game.