The Good, The Bad & The Ugly: Velious

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Hmm let's see. PoTG is 6 mana/tick, C2 is 11, epic is 3, we'll assume FT 3. So total that's 23. The wizard casts the epic (15 seconds) then does sit/mana robe dancing for 13 ticks then casts two bane spells (15 seconds).

So we have 5 ticks of 23 while casting and 13 ticks of 23+21+20 = 64 for a total mana gain of 947 and an output of 800. We'll ignore the 1/3 of a bane spell for now, so 947*5 = 4735 damage every 18 ticks, which averages out to 43 dps sustained. Which is really not bad but definitely behind all pure melee. Of course the wizard also has ~15k damage from his initial manapool. If we assume a 15 minute fight, that's another 16 dps bringing the total to about 60, which is definitely behind rogues and monks, probably about the same as warriors or rangers, but ahead of everyone else. Unless I made a math error somewhere.

You are forgetting harvest, you are calculating damage based on Kunark gear mana. (Will be more like 20k dmg with a decent geared wizard,not max geared at all) Clicking epic is only for the regen when you are low as you can use a quick torpor to regen(oh ya and you arent counting regen). You assume max DPS on melee, and you aren't factoring aggro mechanics in velious and the importance of keeping it on the main tank. Monks/Rogues can go full out now as a baddie has a max of 32khp and about 5-20 seconds of lifespan.

[Tecmos Deception]

Originally Posted by Alarti0001 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Pssh with PoTG, crack, a manarobe, and an epic. Plus the great mana efficiency of the bane spells Wizards were top DPS only behind monks(if they were good wizards).

Is this all right? I've never played a wiz:


Assuming medding half of the ticks in combat (we'll just call it 10/tick over time), clarity 2 (12), potg (6), cantata (12?), epic (3?), and some FT (5, just for kicks), you're looking at, we'll call it 50 mana regen per tick. JUST casting a bane spell every 2 ticks costs 225 mana per tick.

So with a 3500 mana pool (low for velious? I don't know), you're going to be able to do ~170 dps for ~2 minutes before you drop to maybe 50 dps for the rest of the fight.

You can do more DPS, maybe 75-100 more, by casting another spell while bane is on cooldown and by not getting any med ticks sitting, but then you'll only be able to sustain that level for a minute or so before you're oom and having to wait for regen to cast more.


How long do velious fights last? A fight would only need to last like 3 minutes before rogues and monks are doing more over the whole duration than a wizard, based on this. Plus not everything can be baned. And wizards have burst potential if needed at a certain point, but so do rogues/monks, albeit only once every half hour.

If you mess around using a mana robe to eat epic buff you will be dropping below that ~170 dps because you're probably casting then sitting for a tick every time you want to do it. So you're gaining ~30-40 mana every time you do that but losing 6 seconds of DPS. Get caught in an ae or two and you lose your 3 regen buff and would have to spend 15 seconds recasting epic if you wanted it back up, right?


If this math is wrong, please do correct me. Are rogues doing under 130 dps with velious weapons? Are fights lasting only 90 seconds? Are you basing "wizards do the most damage" off of being twitched or having multiple bards twisting mana for you? How much do melee have to hold back from all-out DPS? ?

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by HeallunRumblebelly [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I uh, 15 minute fights were quite rare, even in velious. Might wanna knock that down to 10, even for the hard stuff.

(1,000,000 hp mob, 20 dps @ 100 dps = 2000 dps (on the low side, but w/e) 1m / 2k = 500, 500/60 = 8.3 min fight, which again, was honestly on the long side. Had to have a tight and massive chain to sustain high end mob damage for 8.3 minutes. Big fights here will most likely be closer to the 5 minute range, which does put wizards slightly up, but monk / rogue damage just got full on retarded in velious thanks to stat capping on base gear, avatar on offhands (+100 atk), and vengeance 30 (+150 atk, aura of battle being veng2) actually becoming somewhat feasible.

Its true a good monk was the king of velious, but good wizards consistently out dps'd rogues in velious(Not by huge amounts). Best wizard ever and Best rogue ever, I'm not sure how that would turn out. But, TMO had no shortage of good wizards on live.

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Is this all right? I've never played a wiz:


Assuming medding half of the ticks in combat (we'll just call it 10/tick over time), clarity 2 (12), potg (6), cantata (12?), epic (3?), and some FT (5, just for kicks), you're looking at, we'll call it 50 mana regen per tick. JUST casting a bane spell every 2 ticks costs 225 mana per tick.

So with a 3500 mana pool (low for velious? I don't know), you're going to be able to do ~170 dps for ~2 minutes before you drop to maybe 50 dps for the rest of the fight.

You can do more DPS, maybe 75-100 more, by casting another spell while bane is on cooldown and by not getting any med ticks sitting, but then you'll only be able to sustain that level for a minute or so before you're oom and having to wait for regen to cast more.


How long do velious fights last? A fight would only need to last like 3 minutes before rogues and monks are doing more over the whole duration than a wizard, based on this. Plus not everything can be baned. And wizards have burst potential if needed at a certain point, but so do rogues/monks, albeit only once every half hour.

If you mess around using a mana robe to eat epic buff you will be dropping below that ~170 dps because you're probably casting then sitting for a tick every time you want to do it. So you're gaining ~30-40 mana every time you do that but losing 6 seconds of DPS. Get caught in an ae or two and you lose your 3 regen buff and would have to spend 15 seconds recasting epic if you wanted it back up, right?


If this math is wrong, please do correct me. Are rogues doing under 130 dps with velious weapons? Are fights lasting only 90 seconds? Are you basing "wizards do the most damage" off of being twitched or having multiple bards twisting mana for you? Or what?

You are looking at a one-sided picture. Factor in aggro. Velious isnt like kunark where if your main tank dies, oh well the mob is only alive for 3 more seconds anyways.

[Splorf22]

vengeance 30? I thought the aura of battle was like 20 atk?

Anyway if we half the duration to 7.5 then wizards could maybe hit 70-75 dps. I would guess that would beat out most warriors and rangers by just a bit.

[Tecmos Deception]

Ok. So factor in aggro for me. Like I said, I've never played a wizard, and I've never raided in velious, and I've never raided with a rogue.

Why in the world would everyone (EVERYONE) talk nonstop about how awesome melee DPS, especially rogues and monks, are in Velious if they only can do 70 DPS over the course of a fight because more than that gets them killed?

[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Ok. So factor in aggro for me. Like I said, I've never played a wizard, and I've never raided in velious, and I've never raided with a rogue.

Why in the world would everyone (EVERYONE) talk nonstop about how awesome melee DPS, especially rogues and monks, are in Velious if they only can do 70 DPS over the course of a fight because more than that gets them killed?

Because Rogues and Monks are AWESOME dps in velious? Ill do a little work for you. Lets say there are 4 wizards at a raid... no one dies at this raid over the course of a moderately gears mana bar w/out regen those 4 wizards will do about 88k damage, assuming a giant or a dragon and not AoW(immune to giants bane). That is a rather large chunk out of a baddies health. Factor in the rest of the raids dps.

Lets say you have 4 monks(only) and 4 rogues at this same raid and for the sake of shits lets say they do 100dps a pop, there is another 96k dmg not even factoring in rangers/mages/pets/warriors/sks/bards(lol)/ druids/necros etc. Right now in the first 2 mins of a fight we have 184k HP down to 12 dps classes. Lets be super light and say the rest of the raid did 100k damage. 284k down--2 mins... any questions?

Of course this would only happen on a static fight if the boss was a "practice dummy". Wizards are less prone to rampage, prox aggro, and have a nifty concussion which decreases our threat for minimial time/mana

[Splorf22]

Looks like you finally lost it Alarti MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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[Alarti0001]

Originally Posted by Splorf22 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Looks like you finally lost it Alarti MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA

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hmm>?

[Splorf22]

Well you edited out your empty post.