Want to Start a Rogue and Just want to Make Sure I Understand a Couple Things

[Ripqozko]

Easiest 100 page thread

[Vexenu]

DSM, you are correct to say that STA is harder to cap. You are also correct to say that +25 STR provides relatively limited "lifetime character value" (Let's call this LCV and define it as the sum value added by the stat over the entire /played lifetime of the character). But your error is in the failure to recognize that +25 STA provides an even lower LCV than does +25 STR.

This can be proven with simple logic. The primary and almost singular purpose of the Rogue class is to do melee DPS. The vast, vast majority of a Rogue's productive playtime will be spent attacking mobs. Because of this, even a trivial amount of extra STR will provide a noticeable LCV gain over the long term. Further, added STR will provide the non-combat benefit of higher carrying capacity.

In contrast, the benefit of additional HP provided by +25 STA is only felt when the Rogue is taking damage so significant that he is on the very edge of death. Most deaths in EQ, especially among experienced players, are of the sort where a small amount of extra HP would not have helped to prevent a death. This is even more true for Rogues, who are not a tank class and who rely primarily on resist gear on raids to stay alive.

In summary, while it is true that +25 STR provides minor and unnecessary benefits, those benefits are still greater than those provided by +25 STA, making STR the clear choice.

[Snaggles]

Technically 80 hps gives a bigger fuel tank when raiding before you get to blood aggro but we are splitting hairs with a straight razor.

Since this thread is officially nuked, new angle:
OP, you really want to make a ranger. Fun and underrated class!!

[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by Vexenu [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DSM, you are correct to say that STA is harder to cap. You are also correct to say that +25 STR provides relatively limited "lifetime character value" (Let's call this LCV and define it as the sum value added by the stat over the entire /played lifetime of the character). But your error is in the failure to recognize that +25 STA provides an even lower LCV than does +25 STR.

This can be proven with simple logic. The primary and almost singular purpose of the Rogue class is to do melee DPS. The vast, vast majority of a Rogue's productive playtime will be spent attacking mobs. Because of this, even a trivial amount of extra STR will provide a noticeable LCV gain over the long term. Further, added STR will provide the non-combat benefit of higher carrying capacity.

In contrast, the benefit of additional HP provided by +25 STA is only felt when the Rogue is taking damage so significant that he is on the very edge of death. Most deaths in EQ, especially among experienced players, are of the sort where a small amount of extra HP would not have helped to prevent a death. This is even more true for Rogues, who are not a tank class and who rely primarily on resist gear on raids to stay alive.

In summary, while it is true that +25 STR provides minor and unnecessary benefits, those benefits are still greater than those provided by +25 STA, making STR the clear choice.

I disagree that the STR will provide any noticeable benefit to OP, who has 20k worth of gear. There are a few simple reasons for this:

1. With 20k you can get enough STR and Weight Reduction bags to carry whatever you need. I leveled a Monk from 1-51 with 140 STR and no Tink Bags. I was able to pick up everything and sell it just fine. Remember that Monks and Rogues have sneak, so they have more options in general when it comes to finding merchants. Rogues are a group class too, so unless the group is giving all the loot to the Rogue, you are also acquiring loot at a slower rate. This further reduces the need for high strength and weight reduction. In a group you also have a higher chance of pairing with a class that has a STR buff, SoW, Ports, etc. This means it isn't as difficult to go to and from merchants.

2. The DPS gain from 25 STR when you are not capped is unnoticeable in group content. The biggest boost you are getting in terms of DPS is a good ratio weapon and a haste item. I have never seen a player booted from a group because they did not match some arbitrary DPS check. You and your group are not going to notice 25 less STR when looking at DPS.

3. STR is very easy to cap when you start to raid. Maniacal Strength + Focus of Spirit gives you 135 STR. You don't need a Primal weapon, you only need +60 Strength from gear on a Gnome Rogue to cap STR in a raid. This is easy to achieve with EC gear. Dispelling mobs hurt your DPS mostly by dispelling Haste, not Strength Buffs, so that is a moot point. Personal preference on not wanting to take Maniacal Strength is also irrelevant. Shamans can handle buffing you with Maniacal Strength. If you choose to lower your DPS due to preference, that is your fault.

4. Uncapped STA will provide an HP bonus for more hours of play. Dying = 0 DPS. It is important to not die in raids. In groups the extra HP isn't going to matter much, I agree. But as I said in number 2, neither is the STR.

You want to put your points into the harder to cap stat, as getting some benefit for more hours of play is greater than zero benefit due to stat caps. As I have stated before, STR can be a good idea for characters that have no starting money or items.

[Toxigen]

jesus fuckin christ

[Cecily]

Lot of bad advice. +5 STR +25 STA is the better long term build. You need 187 STR to cap with Manical. You need 188 STR to cap with Focus. Those are your targets. They are pretty easy to hit with the right (+STA) build. Going +25 STR handicaps you lv 45+ when those buffs are available. +STR was fine in Kunark. It's the wrong choice in Velious.

Originally Posted by Toxigen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

jesus fuckin christ

You're either trolling DSM or bleeding heart over think of the poor new player which is wrong because that char has no room to develop after STR cap. Getting new STR stuff is fun. Being overcapped on STR is not fun.

Cecily on Blue was a +25 str Wood Elf and that was a good choice because Kunark lasted forever and I got a lot of use out it for resist swaps. I mained a +5 STR Dark Elf on Green and have had zero issues. We're playing in an expansion where you can get +17 STR between your gloves and boots for 1k.

[Cecily]

This is a low investment dark elf rogue template using a +5 STR + 25 STA build.


Buffed STR overcap point = lv 46 (epic) = 197 STR with Ragebringer.
And there's plenty of room for improvement.

[Vexenu]

Overcapping STR is entirely a choice until late Velious. +25 STR allows you greater flexibility with gearing for resists. If you think that starting with lower STR makes it more fun to raid and acquire new STR gear, that's more your personal preference/motivation than anything else. There's also the fundamental reality that the extra HP from the added STA will be functionally useless for 99.999% of your playtime, while STR is always paying dividends, even if it just means not having to delete your gold to avoid encumbrance. That, along with higher base melee damage unbuffed, is a real, value-added benefit across then board, whereas extra HP is useful only in extremely marginal and rare cases.

[Cecily]

That's a great point, in Kunark. STA is the right choice for a character you're taking to 60. In the dirt gear I linked above, the character will overcap STR with a shaman in about a month of casual play.

[Toxigen]

Originally Posted by Cecily [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That's a great point, in Kunark. STA is the right choice for a character you're taking to 60. In the dirt gear I linked above, the character will overcap STR with a shaman in about a month of casual play.

lol 1 month of casual play

hahahahahahahaa

no