Class R and Poopsocks

[drktmplr12]

Disclaimer: I do not care about this Inny dispute, and this thread isn't here to discuss it. Goto RnF if you want to talk about it.

Recently, Derub has posted an amendment of sorts to raid policy:

We are moving to a system where raid disputes are player adjudicated and resolved. If there is a dispute involving two or more parties in which a rule has been broken, bringing that dispute to the GM's is a last resort, after all other options have been explored. We greatly encourage players involved in disputes to work with each other to find their own solutions to situations that arise during raids, and reaching a compromise that will almost always be preferable to GM intervention. Obviously this is not a new notion by any means - but from here on out it will be the regular procedure for handling a dispute, as opposed to the exception.

In the past, the go-to solution for a raid dispute was to put in a petition and let the staff decide what to do. We feel there are few, if any, situations that cannot be resolved through cooperation and compromise. If a dispute needs to be brought to a GM, it is very likely both sides will walk away unhappy with the result. It is therefore in all parties best interest to work together to come to their own resolution.

This change will largely affect Class C guilds, as Class R guilds have their own prearranged agreement as to how Class R spawns should be handled that is conducive to an environment that produces fewer disputes. This system, however, is not class exclusive, and if one or more groups are involved in a dispute, we expect the situation to be handled in a similar fashion regardless of class affiliation.

From this point forward we expect players to exhaust every possible option to reach an agreement during a dispute before involving the staff. We do not believe this to be an unreasonable request, as everyone here has the knowledge, capacity, and understanding to be able to work out these problems on their own.

We are confident this will provide less staff intervention, more cooperation between competing guilds, and an overall better raid scene for everyone. We look forward to an exciting and fun year of raiding across Antonica, Kunark, and Velious!

Let me explain my thoughts:

1. It's against raid policy to poopsock merb spawns.
2. Class R has player arranged agreements.
3. Suppose AG is up for draco according to the Class R agreement.
4. Suppose draco is in window.

Could it be considered OKAY to have a raid force clearing trash in fear while waiting for him to pop?

This is assuming all eligible parties decline to make a complaint about said rule to the CSR. In other words, the players came to an agreement that they do not care to get CSR involved because it really makes no difference for Class R to wait around outside a zone or near the spawn point. It just seems stupid to me that we can't be in the zone and are forced to poopsock instead of at least clearing trash and hoping he pops while we are there.

AS far as I know, there are 0 guilds outside of Class C and Class R capable of doing anything meaningful with regards to raid mobs. That's why I bring this up. I think this is EXACTLY the type of thing that the CSR wants to see: Players resolving potential disputes.

Thanks for reading~

[Erati]

cant figure out which of the two identical posts you made to respond on.

I believe Sirken had clarified this previously and said there would only be a problem if another "Lord Bob esque non-rotation" guild wanted to compete for that draco.

Since there are currently no guilds that are looking to compete on the R mobs that are also not in the rotation, I dont think you would hear many complaints from the other R guilds about AG wishing to do this.


If all the R guilds got together and agreed upon something like this would it then be law? ( until another Lord Bob shows up? )

[Troubled]

I don't know if I'd break stone tablet rules no matter how many players agreed with it.

[drktmplr12]

Originally Posted by Troubled [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know if I'd break stone tablet rules no matter how many players agreed with it.

I understand they are stone tablet rules, however if the CSR doesn't need to get involved because the players came to their own resolution, what do they care? That's exactly what they want it seems.

A more extreme example (let's not get caught up on the specifics of this hypothetical):

If all Class C guilds WANTED to train each other in VP, and agreed to it.. and 100% of their players agreed to not peitionquest, why would the CSR come in and create an issue where there is none? Regardless of the stone tablets... that seems to be the opposite of what the CSR is trying to accomplish with the policy.

Alot of times people get caught up in the process of solving a problem they forget what the goal is and get stuck on specifics. Specifically, the goal of the raid policy is to give players a guideline so CSR doesn't need to get involved. Many still fail to understand this. If players are working together inside the server rules (no exploiting, cheating, RMT, etc.) but outside the raid policy, what's really the problem? The end goal not getting CSR involved is still satisfied.

[khanable]

Originally Posted by Troubled [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't know if I'd break stone tablet rules no matter how many players agreed with it.

^^^

I'd personally have no issue with it

However, we must operate within server rules at all times.

We are not above server rules simply because we all agree on something.

Be mindful that you're breaking the server rule if doing something like this, and be ready to forfeit the encounter if you have a guild contesting you.

[drktmplr12]

I made two posts?

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not proposing we want to do this. Just want to make that clear.

I know most people in Class R guilds are not eager to toe the line and would prefer to just wait outside. I was not aware that Sirken had clarified this and I can't find a reference using forum search.

I don't think that it would be law, but instead just a player enforced agreement. The only means to get others to work within it would be to disrupt their ability to participate in the community by refusing ports, groups, buffs, etc.

[Erati]

the post with Sirk's quote has been deleted or moved.

It was a similar post by one of your officers regarding draco actually.

Sirken said he wouldnt have a problem with it, but the problem arises when there was another active R guild looking to compete rather than rotate. So while he understood where AG was coming from and he didnt have a problem with it, it would be unfair to another guild actively competing on that mob and would warrant a suspension.

He did say tho, wish I could find it, that he wouldnt take issue with the R guild that was up for the R mob being in the zone clearing etc actively waiting for that pop.

If there is no one else competing for the spawn then there really is no rule broken in terms of 'fairness' and spirit of the game.


however as Troubled said, for now its pretty hard to just go against a server rule on hope and logic [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Raavak]

Originally Posted by Erati [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If there is no one else competing for the spawn then there really is no rule broken in terms of 'fairness' and spirit of the game.

The problem arises only if a guild wants to compete for said Class R mob.

Its somewhat of a gray area and probably would rarely come into play. Just be observant and if by some chance a guild chooses to go after the mob (draco) and you were clearing when it spawned, you forfeit it. If you kill it anyway you broke the carved-in-stone rules. But 99% of the time draco is all yours.

In short, play it by ear. Lord Bob was an anomaly.

[Erati]

Originally Posted by Raavak [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The problem arises only if a guild wants to compete for said Class R mob.

Its somewhat of a gray area and probably would rarely come into play. Just be observant and if by some chance a guild chooses to go after the mob (draco) and you were clearing when it spawned, you forfeit it. If you kill it anyway you broke the carved-in-stone rules. But 99% of the time draco is all yours.

In short, play it by ear. Lord Bob was an anomaly.

this summed it up quite nicely and should be /thread

[Sylexis]

I find that "Fair" by American definition means equal or in MY favor, if it is in THEIR favor it is now "unfair."

Any instance of "something happened in their favor, I must have found a loophole in the raiding rules I should go post on the forums." Is usually because of the American definition of fair. I.e. Inny, recently and any other FFA or probably class C mob that pops.

As for your specific question, if I am not mistaken it is an offense punishable by some sort of temporary raid ban for more than 2 players of said guild to be in a zone before the mob is up, but if I am also not mistaken that is ONLY in the case of FFA mobs.

A Class R mob with you next up on the rotation? You can go dance a jig on his spawn point with you and 100 of your closest buddies if you want, it's your mob.

In short, preclear fear if it's class R and you are next, do not clear fear if it's FFA. If it's Class R and someone ELSES guild's turn at the mob, get the guilds leadership's consent to take out the trash (for armor drops, don't you dare touch said mob).