Pre-Torpor: Cann II or Can III

[loramin]

I had originally planned to just skip Cann II, and go straight to Cann III since the latter is cheaper and the quest for Cann II is a giant pain at lower levels. But then I was talking to another shaman who was saying that the ratio of Cann III is so bad I'll be wanting to use Cann II even at 60, until I get Torpor.

So I'm just curious: of those of you who are 54+ but don't yet have Torpor, which one do you use?

[thieros]

only 37, so cant guarantee the answer is right, but:

canni 2 more efficient (marathon mana)
- soloing
- main healer in groups

canni 3 less casts (sprint mana)
- buffing
- groups as not main healer

Can you get by without canni 2? probably. Is it worth getting? definitely. read through this thread for people that have tried without canni 2 and their impressions: http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=118326

[loramin]

Thanks for the response. The thing about that thread is, it basically says "Cann II will be worth it to get 54", but that's not relevant for me because I'm 53 closing in on 54 though.

So, getting to 54 isn't what I'm worried about; what I am worried about is memming a 3k spell that I could have sold (to get JBB money) and then never using it because I'm using Cann III instead. So I was hoping to hear from other shaman in the 54-60 range to either hear "yeah I only use Cann III now" or "I'm still using Cann II".

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

I only use canni 3.

Here is a typical breakdown for Yums soloing with epic.

I will have 4 mobs root rotting at a time at 56 using paralyzingly earth. Sometimes 5 but usually 4. The epic click is best during its final ticks so you never overwrite it early. The epic dot will last 84 seconds. So, here are the numbers:

- total elapsed dot time: 84 seconds per mob.
- root cast: 2.5 seconds for paralyzingly earth (maybe 2) with 2 sec casting cool down: 4 seconds total.
- epic cast: 9 Seconds, 0 cool down.

Send suicide doge in, 4 mobs engage doge. Cast root (2cast)+(2cooldown), cast root (2cast)+ (2 cool down), cast root (2cast)+(2 cool down), cast root (2 cast)+(2 cool down), cast epic (9), cast epic (9), cast epic (9), cast epic (9).

Total time so far is 60 seconds or 10 ticks. During this 10 ticks and assuming you've already canni'd down you will have regenerated around 200hp as Barb or Ogre or about 250 as Troll/Iksar. You will need to cast canni 2 5 times in order to bring you back down to where you were for the next round meaning, if you are dancing correctly, need to spend the next 30 seconds canni dancing in order to be able to "beat" your regeneration rate.

Canni 3 Allows you to beat your regen rate and maintain mana. Oddly enough, this scenario appears to show that canni 3 would be best with enstill vs. paralyzingly earth with canni 2 coming back into the picture at 56.

FYI you can be slightly more efficient if you take advantage of the 0 cool down on epic.

Canni 2 - epic - canni 2 - epic etc...

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Originally Posted by Yumyums Inmahtumtums [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I only use canni 3.

Here is a typical breakdown for Yums soloing with epic.

I will have 4 mobs root rotting at a time at 56 using paralyzingly earth. Sometimes 5 but usually 4. The epic click is best during its final ticks so you never overwrite it early. The epic dot will last 84 seconds. So, here are the numbers:

- total elapsed dot time: 84 seconds per mob.
- root cast: 2.5 seconds for paralyzingly earth (maybe 2) with 2 sec casting cool down: 4 seconds total.
- epic cast: 9 Seconds, 0 cool down.

Send suicide doge in, 4 mobs engage doge. Cast root (2cast)+(2cooldown), cast root (2cast)+ (2 cool down), cast root (2cast)+(2 cool down), cast root (2 cast)+(2 cool down), cast epic (9), cast epic (9), cast epic (9), cast epic (9).

Total time so far is 60 seconds or 10 ticks. During this 10 ticks and assuming you've already canni'd down you will have regenerated around 200hp as Barb or Ogre or about 250 as Troll/Iksar. You will need to cast canni 2 5 times in order to bring you back down to where you were for the next round meaning, if you are dancing correctly, need to spend the next 30 seconds canni dancing in order to be able to "beat" your regeneration rate.

Canni 3 Allows you to beat your regen rate and maintain mana. Oddly enough, this scenario appears to show that canni 3 would be best with enstill vs. paralyzingly earth with canni 2 coming back into the picture at 56.

FYI you can be slightly more efficient if you take advantage of the 0 cool down on epic.

Canni 2 - epic - canni 2 - epic etc...

Blah blah blah blah blah.

Never actually got to the point. Illustration to show tedium of min-maxing with canni 2. Just use canni 3.

[Seducio]

With a Fungi: Canni 3 because the extra mana is noticeable but loss of hitpoints are easier to regain

Without a Fungi: Canni 2 due to efficiency

Really depends quite a bit on play style.

Balls to the wall vs. maximizing every tick

[Zeonick]

Yeah one thing i've noticed while soloing is that i'll go round up a couple mobs, get them positioned, rooted, dots started, etc. By this time i'm usually at 100% HP from sitting there regenning as i'm running about doing this. It's just nice to quickly pop a canni 3 in between casts to keep my hp down(never sit at 100% hp!) That's the main reason I switched to using canni 3. Also, canni 2 is only a little bit more efficient, yet canni 3 is faster.

[DrKvothe]

Yums, I'm still 7% from 56 so I'm using enstill in CoM (see evil shm lvling guide). I'm typically root rotting 3-5 mobs at once, needing twice as many roots and also malisement on each mob. That's considerably more casting, but I still use canni 2 to great effect.

No GCD when moving between spells and clickies helps make it work, but the real key is having the enstill/epic cycles slightly offset so that I've got room for the occasional canni and/or med tick between targets.

I'm catching very, very few med ticks. Using canni 3 would allow the occasional extra med tick, but I doubt it'd happen often enough to make up for the difference in ratio.

From the perspective of a new 54, I'd definitely get canni 2. Don't think of it as 3kpp you're losing, think about it this way: it takes 100pp (strange ocre clay) and ~2-3 hours of running around to farm one. Is it worth this cost? Yes,imho. If you want to then pay another 100pp and run around for another 2-3 hours for another to sell, go for it.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Yums, I'm still 7% from 56 so I'm using enstill in CoM (see evil shm lvling guide). I'm typically root rotting 3-5 mobs at once, needing twice as many roots and also malisement on each mob. That's considerably more casting, but I still use canni 2 to great effect.

No GCD when moving between spells and clickies helps make it work, but the real key is having the enstill/epic cycles slightly offset so that I've got room for the occasional canni and/or med tick between targets.

I'm catching very, very few med ticks. Using canni 3 would allow the occasional extra med tick, but I doubt it'd happen often enough to make up for the difference in ratio.

From the perspective of a new 54, I'd definitely get canni 2. Don't think of it as 3kpp you're losing, think about it this way: it takes 100pp (strange ocre clay) and ~2-3 hours of running around to farm one. Is it worth this cost? Yes,imho. If you want to then pay another 100pp and run around for another 2-3 hours for another to sell, go for it.

Good counter argument! I'll have to see how it all shakes out.

The only thing I really like to stagger are the roots in case I get too baked and fuck up the timing. Then I'm in trouble with 4 angry mobs on me.

Really, as long as you're able to keep your health below 100% at all items you could make the argument for canni 2.

[loramin]

Thanks for the responses everyone. It sounds like the Cann III users aren't really missing Cann II, which is encouraging. Out of curiosity, do you Cann III users (Yums and Zeonick) have Fungal Tunics?

Originally Posted by DrKvothe [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Don't think of it as 3kpp you're losing, think about it this way: it takes 100pp (strange ocre clay) and ~2-3 hours of running around to farm one. Is it worth this cost? Yes,imho. If you want to then pay another 100pp and run around for another 2-3 hours for another to sell, go for it.

I'm actually working on doing the quest a second time now, but even once I complete it I'll still be torn, because of course I can sell both copies. Since each copy is 3/40ths of a JBB, it's not so much a question of "do I spend 2-3 hours and 100 plat or not". Instead, it's a given that I'll spend those hours/plat, and a question of "Cann II vs. 3/40ths of a JBB".

When you look at it that way, do you still think the spell is worth 3/40ths of a JBB (to a level 54)? The JBB is so awesome, and I'm so poor ...