[falkun]

Originally Posted by Alawen [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You are now engaged in the informal logical fallacy of equivocation. The three scenarios I described are not identical or even similar. You argue poorly.

Here are your scenarios:
showing up with an inadequate raid force and having your bluff called makes FTE irrelevant, as demonstrated at Noble Dojorn.
This is the only case where GM intervention will override FTE. But, in this case of a "too small raid force" example, if you pull when your raid force is too small, you will wipe unless a larger raid bails you out. The larger guild would be stupid for bailing you out in this case, and GMs would not enforce your FTE should the FTE be close enough that its "beyond human perception".

Lacking a competent pull team on an outdoor dragon will prevent an opportunity to compete for FTE at all, as demonstrated at Talendor
So competent pull team and "first to engage" are not similar? What is the pull team's job if its *not* to engage Talendor? Should they be buffing? Who should be engaging before (first) the pull team?

Being unable to find your way to the raid spot without dying will also preclude a chance for FTE, as demonstrated at Nagafen
If you are not at Nagafen, how do you expect to engage him? If someone gets to Nagafen before you, the only thing preventing them from being first to engage is themselves.

FTE is the pillar that holds up the rest of this server's raid scene. All other rules are subsidiaries.

Originally Posted by Rogean

(1)Q: What classifies a mob as "Engaged"?
A: A mob is classified as engaged as long as it has aggro on at least one player.

(2)Q: Can we camp raid mobs?
A: If you choose to lay a claim to an unspawned raid npc, your raid must be at the npc's spawn point with sufficient force. (within aggro range of the npc when it spawns, with at least a 15 member raid party). e.g. (inside Nagafen's Lair) This is the ONLY way claims of unspawned raid targets will be respected.

(3)Q: Both raids got here simultaneously. What do we do?
A: In the rare case that both raids feel they got there first than you can work out a compromise on your own.

(4)Q: What rules pertain to raid mobs that are triggered spawns?
A: If a raid mob is triggered to spawn by killing a single mob before it (Example: Statue -> Idol -> Avatar of War), the guild that spawned the mob has 20 minutes to engage it. The mob is open to any other guild on a first to engage basis once the first guild has either wiped or not engaged within the time limit.

(5)Q: What about raid mobs that are spawned by a combination of other mobs?
A: In the case of a raid mob that is spawned by clearing an area (Example: Azarack Island in Plane of Sky), the guild that did the clearing has the same consideration as above; That is, 20 Minutes to engage and 1 attempt. In the case of multiple guilds contributing significantly to the spawn of the mob, the mob is first to engage by any of those guilds.

(6)Q: What about a raid mob being indefinitely kited or occupied?
A: It is now against server policy to indefinitely kite, or otherwise keep occupied, a raid mob without intention of bringing it to your raid camp. You either bring it to your raid, die, or zone out. Obvious stall-kiting of a raid mob, especially in situations to prevent engagement by another guild, will result in disciplinary actions against the kiter's account, and possibly their raid/guild leadership.

(7)Q: Will the planes be open to everyone?
A: Yes. Please be respectful to your fellow players and respect their space. If there is a guild getting ready to raid Hate for some armor and they start pulling creatures, don't go up there and sit on top of them pulling mobs in their area as well. If Guild A is doing Hate, then perhaps Guild B should be doing Fear. Basically, don't be a douche bag.

(8)Q: What if our raid is disrupted? What if our raid interferes with another raid?
A: Any non-consensual disturbance or meddling from a raid which leads to another raid being disrupted will result in very harsh punishments. Anyone involved in disruptions will be banned for 1 week with possible action against their guild's leadership. Second offenses will be 2 weeks. Further offenses will be permanent. It is the responsibility of the raid leaders to control their members. We strongly suggest that you avoid other raids while in a zone.

(9)Q: How do we report another raid training or KSing?
A: It is the responsibility of the accusers to provide evidence that they were trained. Fraps works. Certain screenshots work. We strongly suggest that you have someone watching your back. Please have only one person, preferably an officer, gather all the required information, and post it in the petition forum. We do not like an entire guild petitioning about the same thing, and doing so will result in the situation being ignored.

(10)Q: Why is there a spawn variance? This isn't classic!
A: While we strive to be as accurate as we can in terms of classic content, this is something that we feel is necessary to keep things running smooth. We believe the spawn variance method promotes both fairness and competition. Please note that we do not refresh the mob spawn times with a crash or patch. On live all raid targets re-spawned with a patch which usually caused bunches of raid targets to spawn. So on live Nagafen or Vox kills were not always exactly one week apart.

(11)Q: Where can I deposit my tears?
A: As always your tears and crying of favoritism are important to us; for without you we couldn't possibly run things around there. You are the wind beneath my wings. Please direct your tears to the Petition/Exploit Forum or in extreme cases of hissy fits or conspiracy theories, Nilbog's Inbox.


(12)Venril Sathir
Venril Sathir may only be pulled into the larger room adjacent to his spawn point, no further.

(13)Non-Disputable Zones
Zones deemed Non-Disputable will have no CSR interaction on raid disputes. We will not respond to or take any action on raid disputes involving these zones. Currently the only zone that this applies to is Veeshan's Peak.

1) Establishes FTE
2) Redacted by Sirken
3) Has been relegated to 'socking and waiting for GM to determine FTE
4) States FTE determines who gets first shot at the subsequent spawn
5) See 4
6) Clarifies kiting != FTE
7) Play nice together
8) Training = bad
9) How to report training and FTE
10) Variance exists to stop 'socking
11) How to report Training and FTE
12) Clarifies kiting (6)
13) Training (and possibly FTE, although I don't think that's ever been disputed) disputes will be ignored in VP.

Out of the 12 (1 removed) raid rules, the major topics are, in order of most discussed to least, are FTE (1, 3, 4, 5, 6, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13), training (7, 8, 9, 11, 13), and finally reporting cases of the first two (9, 11).