[Kraftwerk]

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I don't see it that way. I know it is fallacious to assume of the general what is true from the specific, but in my anecdotal experience, libertarians generally refuse to see the good in a central government public works. I see that as a head-in-the-sand philosophy which is intentionally ignorant of the great things this country has done when funded heavily with taxes.

Yes, I am a libertarian. But I will concede I am not a staunch libertarian and I only choose this political alignment because the current state of our government is sickening. The current government spending is profligate and aids the few not the many. I can see the benefits of previous central government spending. I'll even toss out a few that I think aided the greater good and helped reinforce our national identity:

Mt Rushmore, Hoover Dam, National Parks system, Interstate Highway System.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

To promote my side of the argument, I only ask you to do some research on the following points:
What was the income tax rate in 1954?
What meaningful contributions to life, posterity, and the world did the United States make during that period of time?

Income tax rate is one thing, and in 1954 the progressive rate scaled pretty high and there were great contributions as a result of central government spending. There is another side to the coin though when analyzing historical statistics. For the sake of argument I'm using 2006 statistics since the tax code hasn't really changed between then and now. Let's take a gander at two stats one being inflation adjusted :

1st - http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_5aAsxFJOeM...es-pct-gdp.JPG

2nd - http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_5aAsxFJOeM...ax-revenue.JPG

(I tried to post these as an IMG but I fail)

Our tax collection as a % of GDP is unchanged, and (inflation adjusted) we are collecting nearly 5x the taxes we were collecting in 1954. This kind of spending is obscene and needs to be stopped. So we're collecting 500% the taxes (adjusted for inflation) compared to the 1950's. If the 1950's were a period where "...meaningful contributions to life, posterity, and the world..." were made by the US, then now we should be contributing 5 times as much since we're collecting 5 times more money! And yet the insane central government spending has gotten us exactly nowhere.

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I see your point with the black and white arguments from me, and raise you your own rhetoric (in bold above). If we're going to agree that theoretical ideals are something which can be bantered, at least give me that a central government needs not abuse taxpayer money, but that rather that is what exists in reality based on the silence of the people.

This I can just completely agree with. If a central government is a necessity to improving standard of living and enabling the best possible social contract than taxpayer money needs to be pointed in the right directions. And since the US Government in 1954 achieved such admirable things with a mere ~20% of our current tax revenue, imagine what a competent government could do if they slashed taxes by half currently. They would still have 2.5x the funds of the US Government in 1954!

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Those local municipalities and private companies are generally subsidized and you know it. If your particular organization is not, then at least grant that most are. I applaud any effort to be more self-sufficient, especially if that means not using benefits which are available to you because you are not in need, but grant that there are those with legitimate need, and that helping those people become more contributory members of society is a long term goal consistent with good morality. I know you're going to cry black and white, but helping EVERYONE not get the bubonic plague helps YOU not get the plague too. Amirite?

So let's assume they are subsidized, the US Government as of 2011 will spend $5.87B this year on Energy, and $11.81B on Water. ~$3.67T is the total spending for the US Government this year. So Water/Energy combined comes to 0.4817% of total government spending this year. And that's just broad Water/Energy, I didn't even delve into the specifics to find out how much went where and why. Let's compare that to another government project, currently halted, and see where necessities to life add up on the list of priorities. The F-22 Raptor Project cost us $67.6B. That's nearly 4x Water/Energy combined in 2011, for a shelved military aviation project! Our government is spending things properly...

Originally Posted by Hasbinbad [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That is one possible outcome, but given human history, I have no reason to believe it is probable. What is more likely is that there will be private security forces ensuring that you buy only what they want you to buy either through manipulation at the personal level (if you buy jify pop instead of orville redenbockers, we'll rape your wife), at the storefront level (if you sell jify pop, we'll rape your wife), or at various distribution levels (if you deliver jify pop to the stores, trucks, ships, trains, we'll rape your wife). At the VERY least, control over choice via advertising (don't even think about arguing the power of advertising over "free choice" dude, the evidence in favor is damn near absolute) will be drastically increased.

Obviously advertising is powerful, but the consumer does have the ability to 'choose' which product most appealed to them through advertising. I think a retraction in government size and retention of anti-trust policies and regulation don't have to be mutually exclusive. I live in gray areas, I admit that not all my beliefs here are staunchly libertarian, but we've progressed beyond the ability to continue without a social contract including a central government. My belief is that that central government not behave as harmfully and carefree with our money as they have.

If a thief robs you once, you can try to convert his ways to prevent that robbery from occuring again in the future. If a thief robs you again, you're left with the responsibility. That is the situation we're currently in with our government. They've stolen from us to supply failed banks with direct lines of liquidity from The Fed and Treasury Dept. Once they realized they could get away with it, there is nothing to stop them from continuing to do it, except closing the purse. Cutting government funding will result in cutting government spending. The debt bubble has to end before the healing can begin. Let me get down to some brass tacks on USD$ Government spending though to show you how spending has gotten out of control completely and needs to be cut drastically:

All of this is in 2011 USD:

Eisenhower Interstate Highway System, the largest public works project in the history of mankind. Cost to the taxpayer - $465.97B. Less than half a trillion dollars to create jobs and improve our infrastructure.

NEA-estimated cost to bring ALL us schools into good repair. Cost to the taxpayer - $413.3B. Even less than the Highway System!

2011 Military Spending - $703.03B
Outstanding and just pure losses for the taxpayer on the TARP 'investment' into failed banks. This being a completely socialist action going against the capitalist free market in which a failing company should fail, not be rewarded for failing - $186.1B
Interest on Debt 2011 - $198.87B

The combined military and failed bank spending in 2011 alone accounts for nearly $1T. The cost to improve our infrastructure rather than support failed banks and over-extend the United States abroad would not only reduce annual maintenance costs, but also create jobs at home to build and repair our nation.

US Tax Revenue now is too massive and it merely enables the government to spend as if there is no tomorrow, because for the career politicians and the parasitic bankers who've invaded governments around the globe, they don't care if there is one as long as they have their safety net. The only way to stop an addict is cut off his supply.

And as a sarcastic PS - I drive a Jeep Grand Cherokee so I'm fine with offroading wherever.