[Hasbinbad]

Originally Posted by vaylorie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Kraftwerk, I finally agree with Hasbinbad... you are a tool...

Please don't agree with me. I don't believe in guilt by association, but others may. Kraft makes a bunch of good points, but employs intentional ignorance as a tactic, and accuses me of logical fallacies which do not exist in my reasoning. He has been conditioned to be thus, and it is not all his fault (much like your situation).

Originally Posted by Kraftwerk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You keep referencing things as black and white and creating straw man arguments to refute points I wasn't even stating, it's as bad as varloye.

I don't see it that way. I know it is fallacious to assume of the general what is true from the specific, but in my anecdotal experience, libertarians generally refuse to see the good in a central government public works. I see that as a head-in-the-sand philosophy which is intentionally ignorant of the great things this country has done when funded heavily with taxes.

To promote my side of the argument, I only ask you to do some research on the following points:
What was the income tax rate in 1954?
What meaningful contributions to life, posterity, and the world did the United States make during that period of time?

Originally Posted by Kraftwerk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Being against a strong central government that abuses taxpayer money as well as creating massive public works rather than states taking it upon themselves definitely means plumbing shouldn't exist anymore.

I see your point with the black and white arguments from me, and raise you your own rhetoric (in bold above). If we're going to agree that theoretical ideals are something which can be bantered, at least give me that a central government needs not abuse taxpayer money, but that rather that is what exists in reality based on the silence of the people.

Originally Posted by Kraftwerk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Here is some information:

I pay a private company for power.
I pay my local municipality for water (plumbing).
I pay a private company for my gas.

Those local municipalities and private companies are generally subsidized and you know it. If your particular organization is not, then at least grant that most are. I applaud any effort to be more self-sufficient, especially if that means not using benefits which are available to you because you are not in need, but grant that there are those with legitimate need, and that helping those people become more contributory members of society is a long term goal consistent with good morality. I know you're going to cry black and white, but helping EVERYONE not get the bubonic plague helps YOU not get the plague too. Amirite?

Originally Posted by Kraftwerk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Should massive central government public works and federal income tax end, then states and the free market would supply what is demanded.

That is one possible outcome, but given human history, I have no reason to believe it is probable. What is more likely is that there will be private security forces ensuring that you buy only what they want you to buy either through manipulation at the personal level (if you buy jify pop instead of orville redenbockers, we'll rape your wife), at the storefront level (if you sell jify pop, we'll rape your wife), or at various distribution levels (if you deliver jify pop to the stores, trucks, ships, trains, we'll rape your wife). At the VERY least, control over choice via advertising (don't even think about arguing the power of advertising over "free choice" dude, the evidence in favor is damn near absolute) will be drastically increased.

Originally Posted by Kraftwerk [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also, what libertarians do you know who would support arresting an individual for marijuana use? It's an individuals right and responsibility.

Oh I wasn't saying that Libertarians supported that, I was just saying that you should say "go back to whatever it is that you're doing, and don't worry about me."

Most often, they're out arresting violent marijuana offenders..