You are either purposely straw manning my arguments, or simply not reading what I am saying. Neither of these tactics are helping your position, and make you look like a troll.
The arguments below are assuming you only have 1 slot left in the group, and are trying to determine which class is best for that remaining slot.
Here are some common arguments for a Cleric, and my rebuttals thus far:
1a. Argument: Clerics have Resurrection and Shamans do not.
1b. Myth: Pocket Clerics are a common tactic when it comes to Resurrection, which you agree with:
https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...78&postcount=6
1c. Fact: This is a 4 man discussion. Pocket Clerics are not relevant. Pathetic attempt to pull in a non related thread about a solo enchanter getting help with rezzes. If multiple group members were allowed, the cleric would have been included.
2a. Argument: Clerics have CH, which is a better tool for keeping Charmed Pets alive.
2b. Myth: With Torpor + Slow, Shamans can tank the mobs instead of the Charmed Pets. This removes the need to CH pets, and it allows the pets to do a bit more DPS, because they can both be behind the mob.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI - Here is an example of this, and you can go on my youtube channel to see other examples of Shaman tanking.
2b. Fact: Quite a lot of mobs are either hard to slow, or slow immune. sebilite protector for example, if slow cannot land, the shaman will be dead in a matter of seconds. Torpor is inferior to Cheal. This thread is about best, no need to settle for an inferior heal. Safer to just cheal an 8k hp pet
3a. Argument: Clerics have Stun Command, which is a useful spell during Charm breaks.
3b. Myth: Stun Command is not required to properly handle Charm breaks. You need to show evidence as to why this is a huge benefit over Malo/Malosini on a pet for Charm breaks, for example. Shamans have quite a few tools to use when helping out with a Charm break.
3c. Fact: Nor is malo or slow required for charm breaks. Stun is the best defense against Charm breaks, this is how enchanters do it, cleric stun only supports this even more. This thread is about best, stun command can lock down both the pet & multiple other mobs at once too. It is the best arguably the defense against charm breaks, including anything the enchanter can offer, as it lasts longer than any enchanter stun. Clerics also have multiple single target slows. You'd be silly to pass this up for something like a shaman slow which no enchanter wants their pet slowed.
4a. Argument: This group of 4 players without a Warrior need at least one cleric for CH when dealing with slow immune mobs.
4b. Myth: People making this claim have yet to name a camp where they think this will be an issue. They are assuming there are camps that a group of 4 players without a Warrior could reasonably do by CHing the pet, since the mob cannot be slowed. We could test if this camp isn't doable by a Shaman, and we could debate the merits of trying to do this camp to begin with in a four man caster/priest group. Also, if you have a pocket Cleric at level 49, you will be able to swap to them for CHing one or two very specific camps.
4c. Fact: See 2b. Torpor is not needed either, and is inferior to CH. Certain mobs can out dps Torpor. CH opens up options, especially if you do want to invite a warrior to attempt some harder mobs. Ie. no downside to losing Torpor, only upside to adding Cheal.
Here are some common arguments for a Mage, and my rebuttals thus far:
5a. Argument: You cannot use solo DPS videos to mimic group DPS when trying to determine which classes are better/worse for DPS.
5b. Myth:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG1Aat1XdbI this video shows you can use a solo video such as
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XwiGKTuu2E to mimic group DPS. This means you can get an accurate idea about what the DPS difference is between a Shaman and a Mage, to better understand what the tradeoff is between a Mage and a Shaman. Crede didn't watch the video I posted, which is why he thought I was only doing 15 DPS. With a Shaman pet and 1x Ice Strike, I am doing 30ish DPS minimum, not including the DPS boost from avataring the Charmed pets, and the DPS boost from having the Charmed pets hitting the mob from behind. This group was also not an example of a "perfect group", as the Enchanter and Necromancer were not level 60. This means there is room for improvement. I also would have been able to root/rot in HS west if the group wanted more kills per hour.
5c. Fact: DSM claimed that a shaman could put out dps similar to a 60 focused water pet mage in a group. 15/30 dps is not remotely close. This video is irrelevant to the discussion. DSM assumes shaman has everything. Give mage everything(epic pet) this DPS gap only gets larger.
6a. Argument: The DPS advantage a Mage can provide in a group out weights the Utility of a Shaman.
6b. Myth: DPS has diminishing returns, based on the camp you are currently doing. As as simple example, if you are camping a mob on a 5 minute timer and it takes 1 minute to kill the mob, you are getting 10 kills per hour. If you double your DPS to where you are killing the mob in 30 seconds, you are getting 11 kills per hour. While you did double your DPS, you did not double your XP gains, you only boosted them by 10%. In a group that is camping a single high priority mob, such as Fungi King, you are not getting any more kills per hour by increasing your DPS via bringing a Mage. At 200 DPS you kill him in 90 seconds. At 300 DPS you kill him in 60 seconds. Saving 30 seconds per 30 minute respawn timer would require you to camp him for 30 hours to get an extra spawn. If your group is killing a lot of trivial mobs for XP, that camp/area has a limit on how many mobs are killable per hour. You may already be at that limit with 2x Enchanters. A Shaman can also increase their DPS by root rotting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gdAIheodtY This is what that would look like in Velks. The Shaman would be root rotting in one area, while the group is in another nearby area killing other spiders.
6c. Fact: DPS has diminishing returns after a certain level of DPS. DPS provides more downtime for player fatigue. A lot of things in this game have diminishing returns. Doesn’t stop people from seeking more of said diminished return. Utility has no returns after a certain level of utility. A cleric and 2 enchanters bring enough utility to render the shaman's utility useless.
Thus far, No evidence has been provided for any of these 6 arguments that dismantle my rebuttals.
The idea that I said Shamans will typically out-DPS Mages is a strawman, and thus not one of the points mentioned here. Mages will generally out-DPS a Shaman in single target scenarios and burst scenarios. Shamans can out-DPS Mages in root/rotting scenarios.
Fact: You have yet to provide evidence of shamans out-DPS mages in root/rotting scenarios. Evidence which has been requested far more than anything else in this thread