[Ennewi]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010303.../011801-2.html

GrollerDaBard
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 08:59 PM
Might as well just remove the songs now.
Replace them with the "Taunt" skill, since that's what these songs do anyway.

The Mage's suggested we get summon beer instead.

I could use a drink right now.

Groller the disillusioned bard

Nayami
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 10:52 PM

...

5. Defensive caps for Paladins and SKs raised, rangers get jolt and double damage bow attacks. Bards get ummmm nothing... At least give the bards an evade type of skill like the rogues. We get aggroed way to easy and fold like tissue paper when we get the mobs attention.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-3.html

Rynnia
Station Member posted 09-07-2000 10:57 PM
I ditched my bard last August when this line of spells stopped working. I couldn't melee too well so that was kinda boring.... I couldnt tank yet most everything would be mad at me for singing... so that was kinda un-fun... I could buff the party with stat increases, yet we all know stats do not affect the outcome of a battle significantly in the small quantities that a bard can increase them, I could haste the party with my songs but in a party with 6 people (of which 2 were probably tanks), it was better for me to sing manasong to let the casters nuke 1 or 2 more times per battle....

Dalakar_Daystar
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 12:56 AM
Ok, So I can take the Mez Songs not working. I never had the Snare and Lullaby songs Pre-nerf anyway, cuz I'm a post-Kunark n00b type person.
But What I want is the Ability to melee decently beyond level 20 or so. Here I am, fighting Pickclaw Lookouts and Guards in Highpass. Theres a full group, A Cleric, A Warrior, A druid, an Enchanter, A Shaman, and Myself. Anyway, We're fighting a Guard, and I'm tearing into with my Thulian Claws (A Gift from someone, I'm not a twink at all, This is my first char) and Polished Granite Tomahawk, Getting 8-12 Damage per swipe I'd say. Meanwhile, The Shaman (Also untwinked, Wearing mostly chain and leather) picks up his Hammer and is doing 20-36 damage a swipe. Yep, I'm getting outdamaged by a Shaman. Also, My Songs are aggroing the Guard on me, So The Cleric is busy healing me after about 15 seconds because I'm down to Half Health cuz the Warrior is having a Hard time taunting it off me.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-4.html

statchris
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 07:53 AM

I understand the complexities Verant faces in view of the Bard song being manaless.

...

It is my opinion that this line of songs needs to be fixed. You wouldnt know it from my calm discussion preceding, but I am actually quite miffed. I am happy that Verant is at least responding, but there is no way these songs are working as intended, unless the intent was a dysfunctional song - or a taunt song....we have enough of those though. From what I have heard so far, there has not even been official acknowledgement of dysfunctionality. This is what is creating almost uncontrollable impulses to slam my foot through the computer monitor screen. I imagine this is the case for many other bards. Perhaps there is no solution to please both parties, but for the sake of all the is melodious, please admit this is a problem. A level 50+ bard not being able to mez a single creature in a group of five level one mobs is not acceptable.

Please keep the lines of communication open Verant. It is the only thing keeping me sane right now.

Tunella,
Bristlebane

Leftie107
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 08:59 AM

"They aren't completely useless, just reduced in usefulness once the targets go over level 30. That said, we're not opposed to revisiting pixie strike and twilight to see if they need to be changed positively now that we know that lullaby is working correctly."

...

6. This song tends to aggro all the critters it affects how shall I say this? hmmm "a wee bit".

...

Bard must play this one and this one song only. Due to #6 and the fact that the rest of the group will focus on just one critter, all the other citters' attention will be on the bard. Because of #2-#6, the chance of a bard successfully mez all of the critters is pretty much anywhere from slim to none. Do you have any objection to the above conclusion?

...

Bard is the only crowd control person in the group. Bard starts playing the Lull song, everyone focus on one target, cleric keeps eyes on bard's hp bar. _ALL_ critters, except for the one being attacked by the group will have the bard on top of the hate list.[/B]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-5.html

Absor
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 10:19 AM
I had to stop reading partway through the thread, I do have real work to do today...
But here's the problem as I see it.

The song works with the percentage effectiveness that Verant wants it to. And I think I understand why. You just can't have a no mana, continuous mez with a good chance of success. It's too powerful.

On the other hand, players are saying that even as is, one break of the spell leads to a bard beating, which in turn causes the song to drop and an even bigger beating to occur. This makes singing this song a surefire taunt, and a certain death sentence to the bard.

Howsabout this as a solution.

Add a component to the song that will clear the bard from the hate list (or clear the whole hate list, if that's how those things work). So, yes, if the song fails the bard will get beat. But the ones that he successfully mezzed will not necessarily join the beating. This might fix the problem all around. It won't make the bard too powerful by being able to free mez the world, and it might keep the bard from getting beat to death every time. It's also fairly consistant with the song effect.

Tactics: In the moment decisions that come down to reaction time. Active, assertive gut choices.
Strategies: Experience-based responses that apply more broadly to overall approach. Passive, contemplative intentions.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-6.html

Woof359
Station Member posted 09-08-2000 02:41 PM
It's not that "lullabye isn't too hot after 30." It's that it's never even lukewarm. At level 16 I made the mistake of trying to play lullabye to some blue death beetles in Unrest, and I got spanked for it. 75% resist rate and they ALL aggro'd on me for it. I used up all of the cleric's mana. That was with 85 CHA (not the best, but give me a break, I was level 16) with an instrument.
The song is completely useless.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304.../011801-9.html

E-Wolf
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 09:57 AM

...

Songs are NOT spells. They can't be cast then forgotten. Beneficial songs only affect group members. Direct damage songs are much weaker than even a warrior's BASH skill. Area effect spells get you killed because your tanking ability is nearly as weak as a caster. In fact, my druid can tank better. Everything about the class is weak to begin with. Yet I love my bard.

Finnias
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 03:51 PM
I don't really agree that bards should have some of the things that are asked for here, but I do think we are resisted way too often, and I think that the main song in question here, the lullaby, CERTAINLY has problems, even at pre-50 levels.
The first time my bard tried to use it, all it did was nearly get me killed and taunt everything off the tanks and onto me! It is a megataunt... and it's not very effective.

With that said, I'm very suprised that the very very small number of bards out there have managed to generate such a large thread! You'd think that this very fact in itself would cause Verant to take the issue a little more seriously...

As far as I'm concerned, they can make it not effective at 30+, but make it at least moderately useful at pre 30.

-Rian-
Station Member posted 09-09-2000 06:01 PM
Surely there is another way to balance our level 15 lullaby song besides making it not work at all. The song is broken, it doesn't work in any practical sense in any context I can think of within the game (beyond level 20 or so).
The only context that I can imagine you would actually use this song is if you needed to taunt multiple mobs to attack you at once. Perhaps this could be the new purpose for Lullaby. I suggest either fixing it, or renaming it. Perhaps "Terrible Taunt" might work. Or "Death Dare" or "Magnificent Manadump" something of that nature. Change the primary and secondary resist messages to read "YOU taunt a moss snake to ignore others and attack only you." Viola, fixed song.

Also, while you are at it, I suggest enchancing the abilities of Enchanters somewhat, further widening the gap between their percieved/real necessity as part of the group and the percieved/real risk of adventuring in kunark without them. Adventuring in Kunark without an enchanter is like the difference between driving a porche and taking your little brother's bigwheel. The only other class that approaches the real/percieved necessity of an enchanter in Kunark is a cleric. Luckily clerics are one of the most popular classes to play and there isn't really a shortage of them. I wonder how often bards would be sought out in groups if we didn't have a mana regen capability or if there were an abundance of high-level enchanters around. Seems to me, fixing the bard mez line - including lullaby - would kill two birds with one stone.

https://web.archive.org/web/20010304...011801-10.html

Lirana
Station Member posted 09-10-2000 03:51 AM
I got to thinking...maybe, just MAYBE, they named the song incorrectly, much in the way they neglected to mention the double resist checks. MAYBE, the song is supposed to be called "Kelin's Taunting Tremelo" and the "resist rates" that many of us have calculated were actually "success rates." MAYBE, the MOB "nods" because your taunts are boring the creature. You know, much in the way that sticking your tongue at someone when you are four years old is mean, but doing it when you are forty is just...dumb? So, MAYBE we've all been wrong, and the song does work correctly. Just a thought...

https://web.archive.org/web/20030511...opicID=5.topic

Mythras
Registered User
(2/19/01 7:56:05 pm)
Reply
Re: Twisting and healing songs...
Why in the world would anyone think you can't solo a wood elf bard? At lvl 12 I could solo lego's in Crushbone with nothing but my fists and a lute and come out of the battle with only 1 bubble of damage (twisting Chords, Hymn, and Bellow). I just made 16th with my wood elf bard and I'm having a blast soloing in Unrest. And Taluvil is correct about the effect of Hymn, it really does alst three pulses

I also have a lvl 44 bard, and regarding Hymn, you are about to enter a period, late teens to mid twenties, where Hymn will get you killed faster than anything else when you are grouped and pull multiples. The aggro you build up with unengaged mobs will pull them on you like flies on....umm, like bees on a flower. By the mid twenties the tanks are able to out-aggro you with their damage dealing, but until then save Hymn for downtime when you are grouped. This thread is about soloing, but I just wanted to throw that out FYI regarding Hymn =)

Nahntanaj
Registered User
(3/15/01 1:36:45 am)
Reply Re: Twisting and healing songs...
I have too disagree with hymn building agro you jusy group wiht people who don't taunt. I had trouble building my defense skill for level 25 and 26 becuase I never got hit. Then I got the song of the sirens and that is agro OMG!

https://web.archive.org/web/20010421...picID=14.topic

leeloominai
Unregistered User
(8/6/00 7:02:44 pm)
Reply We aren't tanks are we?
It seems like every group I get in I end up being a tank. Does this happen to you all or am i just being too nice? I died eight times today...eight...Also why do we get aggroed so much?

Twang
Registered User
(8/8/00 5:39:21 am)
Reply
Re: We aren't tanks are we?
Especially as you get higher in level, you will not be able to take the damage. At 51, I need two healers to have a chance at tanking (one usually does primarily buffs).

If you have other melee/hybrid classes in you group and you are still getting beat down, then you have one of a couple problems. Either the tank doesn't know how to taunt (problably not) or else you are dealing too much dmg coupled with your song aggro. One thing I had to learn the hard way was to back off. For the longest time, I had weapons above my level and an FBSS (pride myself on being a good bargainer). If you have a similar situation, and you are getting beat on, either only twist two song or turn off attack and step back once in a while. You might also try not attacking right away. All these options will help your tank remain high on the MOBs aggro list.
-Twang ALangADingBong
The Age of Wisdom
51 songs and growing

https://web.archive.org/web/20030301...opicID=4.topic

Shallie Dreamsong of CazicThule
Unregistered User
(12/4/99 6:31:11 pm)
Reply Is It Just Me, Or ...
... Does every Monster Attack the Bard in the Party, Even when Both Tanks are Taunting it?
... Does Lambent Armour Give about 4AC? It Looks nice, Sure, But I can swear my Banded was Giving me Higher AC!
... Have you ever Seen a 40th level Shaman cast Lesser Heal? Why Don't we get a Better Heal Song? Heck, why not a DH?
... Does **no one** relise that Hymn of Restoration Increases Healing Rate and/or Amount? I Swear, if one more person says "What do those Blue Sparkles do .." I'll scream!
... Do we get **no** Decent DD spells till were in the High levels, at which point were in Gruips who have Nukers & Casters?
... Is it Impossable to Twist/Twine Songs with a Cruddy Connection? Any one Wanna buy me a DSL Line for the Holidays?

Arg! Glad to Share my Littel annoinces with me Fellow Singers, now that I Hurt my Through Yelling .

May the Gods Find Favior with You,
Shallie Dreamsong
Cazic-Thule

https://web.archive.org/web/20010421...opicID=3.topic

Servo Eci
Unregistered User
(12/3/99 5:58:28 pm)
Reply WHY!!!
Ya know, I've gotten to 30th level, approaching 31st soon....what I want to know is why everything in the world HATES BARDS...

I mean, in a group, who's the first thing the monsters will come after? The Bard...I am in Cazic Thule now with my guild, and they end up healing me at least twice more then they heal anyone else, and to top it off, I will be the first to die when a train gets outta control (Just before the mages usually go OOM! heeheh)

But anyways...what is it with Verant, do they not like Bards? I have been in groups were I am the Higher Level player with people under me, and they STILL come after me...its gotten very annoying...and the Armor while nice...well...I think it still has some issues...I feel like I am wearing tissue paper sometimes the amount of damage I take.

Anyways, I think I have vented a couple of things off my chest...let's hear some more vents! I wanna know if I am not the only one who feels like the Bard is a Monster Magnet.

Now...I love being a Bard, the Selo Song makes it worth it alone, I love being able to outrun them SoW'ed people...hehehe...I often run by them and go BEEP! BEEP! Just would like to see some changes done to the monster S-List or something.

Later folks!
Servo
Bard of Ec'i

Kaolin Silvernote
Global user
(6/6/00 10:16:27 am)
Reply Re: Here's why
Get used to it, the problem only gets worse. Basically since bards are always singing, when a train comes normally maybe 1 of the mobs is mad at the puller, but the rest are just chasing the puller. Our songs that are hasting, healing, etc piss of the remaining mobs that came so they go for the bard. This gets more deadly when you head to the planes, and harder Kunark dungeons. It's the price of being a bard, among other things. The life of a bard is not an easy one, but every now and then it still pays off. Dragons anyone? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://web.archive.org/web/20010417...picID=10.topic

Rian
Global user
(2/9/00 3:28:56 pm)
Reply
Re: More dumb newbie questions
1) Do group buff songs affect party members' pets as well? I thought they wouldn't until I thought I saw the song/spell effect graphics pulsing around a grouped necro's skellie.

Your group buff songs do not enhance pets unfortunetly. As posted above though, offensive AOE's will target and hit pets though not harm them. The only exception I have seen to this rule is if you are grouped with a Necro with a pet. Due to a bug or "feature" (whatever your perspective is), when necro's go linkdead their pets often go out of control. If you hapeen to have an AOE offensive song up and it hits the pet while it has no master, it may attack you.

2) It seemed when I was first doing research for my bard the general consensus was that investing points in STR was a short-sighted idea. But even with weapon skills maxed I'm still only hitting blues one out of three times (STR=75 unbuffed). Is it pretty common for low/mid level bards to seek +STR items (to raise ATK) as much as +DEX, +CHA, or +AGI stuff?

The high-level armor is pretty lightweight actually, but strength is never a bad thing. Just remember the two most important stats for a bard are Dexterity and Charisma. In my opinion, the third most important is AC, but there are arguments for and and against that.

3) Do buff songs (not the healing ones) increase aggro towards you from mobs your group is fighting? Every time my group (necro, 2 clerics, monk, rogue, me) pulled orcs in West Commons the orcs would pummel me into the ground ... even when I wasn't meleeing them, just singing away.

Yes. All of your buff songs are taunts. Some songs taunt more than others. Your songs will taunt more than your melee attacks will. The best thing to do is make sure the healer in your group is aware of this fact and pays special attention to your Hps. Short of that, if you are getting too much attention from the mobs, turn your song off and allow them to retarget. Stop attacking too if you have too. Casters have to do the same sort of thing, learn when it is "safe" to cast and when it is not. The same is true of bards. Don't be afraid to shut up.
Rian Luckless
The Cursed Bard

https://web.archive.org/web/20020114...opicID=4.topic

Tinvaran
Unregistered User
(6/8/00 8:59:24 am)
Reply Selo's Consonant Chain song
This song has been a staple for me from the first level I got it till now (level 35). Compared to caster's root/snare, it does the following:

[1] Very high taunt, repeated use is almost as good as charm, I have pulled Mobs off wizzies and melee types with it, even when they have done far more damage than I ever could. This of course is a two-sided effect...usually when I stop using it, the melee types can taunt the mob off ME (unlike charm) ;-)

[2] Slows the mob's atk speed by up to 30%, this is often not noticeable in the heat of combat, and I wouldn't vouch for the actual percentage, but it DOES slow them down some. When used in conjunction with an atk speed song like Anthem [group] or Warsong [self], the difference is very noticeable.

[3] Reduces the **vectored** movement of a mob by about 60%. This means that when a mob flees, the movement in the direction of its motion is reduced by this much, that is why when the mob is reduced to about 1/3 of its hp, it virtually comes to a halt if 'chained'.

I have also noticed that this song has recently been 'nerfed' by Verant, and that it often no longer lasts the full 3 ticks that it used to, before Verant introuced the message that tells you when it wears off. Hopefully this is a bug which Verant will fix (when they get around to it). As for the atk speed debuff, it appears that it too has been reduced in order to make the level 50+ songs look more attractive.

Evidence that bard aggro was still an issue post-Velious...

https://web.archive.org/web/20030815...tml?num=347604

23:45:40 Aug 15, 2003

This is my main. I have gotten every item on me by myself, or in a group. I am not doing the absolute best melee damage that I could be, but since I keep drawing aggro from even 61 tanks, I dont think I want to be til I get my 53 aggro reducing song. Getting hit for 300+ damage hurts, even when it is only once in a while.

https://web.archive.org/web/20040707...x?PostID=31745

Author Thread: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
dpresley is not online. Last active: 7/7/2004 4:43:35 PM dpresley
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Total Posts: 38

I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 5:05 PM
I have a 58 sk and am used to getting and keeping agro from just about anyone in an ldon or any group for that matter (given that i am MT of course). My point is i know that it's possible and not TOO difficult to get and keep agro from a bard.

My question comes from the point of view of my bard. Every group im in... every ldon im in, the tank just doesnt get and keep agro. It ping pongs back and forth (mostly on me). I dont mind tanking, i can, but im sure the MH would REALLY like to just have to heal one player instead of 2.

I usually twist slow, haste, mana and misc song... pull with the MR reducing DD. I've even been starting my twist so that slow lands last to see if THAT was giving me agro so the tanks couldnt get it.

Is the problem me and the song line up im twisting, or is the problem that i've been finding folks that just dont understand agro? I've read thru the forums and found a few posts about tanking, and trying to get and keep agro as a bard, but not any about NOT keeping agro. Any thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated.
Semin Insane
60 Bard
Zeb Server
Black Rose Knights
My Magelo

wyndaria56 is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 12:23:20 PM wyndaria56
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Total Posts: 73

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 5:18 PM
Yer DOT is what's giving you the agro. Drop that and you'll be golden.

And, to answer your other question, if you are getting hit, YOU are the problem. That's the golden rule of agro. It's YOUR job not to get hit, not the tanks job to out agro you. As you're tank gets better gear and AA's, it will get easier, but for now, do less agro stuff and you'll get hit less.

I always pull with 65 Harmony of Sound (MR debuf with no dot) and then 64 Requiem of Time (52% slow). Once the tank hits the mob once, I never get hit again... And, if people start dying, I'm the last to get agro.

Good luck,
Wyndaria,
Maestro, Nameless.

Steppy is not online. Last active: 7/7/2004 4:59:08 PM Steppy
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Total Posts: 1139

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 6:05 PM
At 65, I land 2 or 3 effects on a mob between initial agro and when the MA takes over. One is Harmony of Sound to debuff resists. The second is Requeim of Time to slow the mob. I MAY initially pull with Druzzil's Disillusionment and than add in those two if I know the mob has a damage shield on it.

Now look at what those three do -- no damage. Debuff resists, slow attack speed, possibly dispell buffs or DS, but no damage. If you pull with a DoT or a larger DD, you establish a lot more initial agro.

Personally, I think a competent warrior or knight should STILL be able to pull agro off of you, but I do LDON with a 65 warrior who has anger-proc type weapons and if I am stacking DoTs on a mob, I can still take agro away from her. Our chants generate some truly vicious agro. Try pulling with Occlusion of Sound to set up your slower and let the MA get a few hits in before you do any damage and I bet you'll stop taking agro away. On a normal LDON or a hard at lower level, it isn't too big a deal it you take agro for awhile. At level 65, the mobs hit for 992 and have a huge attack rating -- a couple of those beating on a bard can kill him in seconds so you MUST be able to hand off agro quickly at that level.
Steppy Astravox
Code of Silence
Luclin Server

nadstar is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 11:45:13 PM nadstar
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Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 7:32 PM
I have noticed that if I pull with a DoT, then i will get agro occasionally when it gets back, so my suggestion is, dont pull with a DoT.

To me, the MT's job is to take hits, and hold agro that the other group members can effectivly do their jobs.

Ascher is not online. Last active: 6/18/2004 1:14:14 PM Ascher
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Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 8:27 PM
Why do you pull with the dot? If your goal is to drop MR pull with OOS. Very little agro, most tanks can grab agro pretty fast from it. If the purpose is to just pull...simple, pull with song of dawn, its the lowest agro song we have (for obvious reasons) The tank will grab agro immediately.
Ascher Grey
Gorenaire winces.
Your feet move faster.

wyndaria56 is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 12:23:20 PM wyndaria56
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Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 30 04 9:35 PM
Also, for what it's worth, your agro lessens as you go up in levels. It may sound strange, but it seemed, the higher I got in levels, the less agro my songs had. Meaning, as I upgraded to higher and higher songs, I got agro less and les.

Early on, I used to swap agro with my wife (war) and we would duo using bard regen to heal. But, as we got up in levels, I stopped being able to get hit. So, maybe yer just not at that threshold yet.

Either way, don't pull with a DoT.

Wyndaria.

Marisha is not online. Last active: 6/4/2004 8:44:29 AM Marisha
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Total Posts: 38

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 31 04 2:53 AM
In my early years I used to grab aggro every now and then, but at later levels this becomes harder and harder as the real tanks (this excluded warriors in some extend but they have fixed that) grab aggro easier.

It's indeed partly the songs you play. I don't use DDs in a fight, and no DoTs. Our dots are pretty good (your best damage output too, till you get sufficient AAs etc.) and I once tested this with a monk. Monk was meleeing mobs while I was standing on a distance twisting dots. I simply out-aggroed the monk. Every time.

Our slows and snares are very low aggro, actually. Much lower than what Shamen and Enchanters cast at any rate. You'll frequently see a mob speed off to a chanter or shaman right after they slowed the mob - their spell is high aggro. The bard slow songs are very light in aggro, compared to that. Also OOS (Occlusion of Sound) or its upgrade (HoS) are very low aggro and thus good pulling tools (if you have epic or a drum). They lower the resists. Again, much less aggro than for example the Tash line.

When I didn't yet have my epic, and was helping meleeing in LDoNs I actually pulled with the single target 'cancel magic' song (can't think of the name right now). It's a bit higher aggro than pulling with slow or resist debuffs, but the advantage is that it often strips damageshields and other possible buffs mobs in LDoN are bestowed with.

If you then still have problems with aggro, you can consider putting the song 'Song of Dawn' in your lineup and twisting it in every now and then, to lower yourself on the hate list. The saber mentioned earlier (that drops in Chardok) procs the same effect, so that may help as well. In general you probably don't want the aggro, as getting beat upon also means that you get interrupted/stunned and that seriously messes up your twist efficiency/fluency.

Finally, I also agree that it's not the bard's fault to get aggro if they do (at later levels, I'm not talking of level 10, 20) unless they are specifically provoking it (i.e. dotting like crazy, chain singing damage rune song, etc. they are all very high aggro generators), it's the task of the tank to try and maintain aggro. Paladins can do this with stuns, Shadowknights have the slows and Terror line, Warriors have the provoke line, all of them have taunt (and even though the latter is far from reliable, it does help at times).

Good luck.

Greylok is not online. Last active: 7/6/2004 4:13:02 PM Greylok
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Total Posts: 33

Re: I dont WANT da agro.. YOU keep it!
Posted: Mar 31 04 7:50 AM
Like everyone has said, don't pull with the dot. I pull with HoS and/or RoT, and I stop songs as I pull it into camp. I run to just beside/behind the tank, and don't attack til he does. It's more just habit but I try to do every possible thing to keep aggro off me. The only difference there is if I have two or more coming, I'll sing Wind of Marr so the adds will run to me instead of a caster. Lazy way to target is to hit escape, hope it hits me, and mezz. In my particular group, the MT assists off me to get their target, so switching to mezz before the target is in the room isn't the best choice.Smiley

When I was lower level, I also pulled with the snare/slow. I often fight with knights tanking, so aggro isn't a problem at all for them. I still am courteous and don't sing or attack til they cast snare/stun and attack though. I don't want to make anyone burn through mana. I'm just a tad more careful on warriors, but the warriors I have tank for me know how to get their aggro well, especially since we all work with them on it.Smiley
Muse Greylok Tenma Maestro of Capulus
Sage Meeka DarkbaneCoercer & GL of Capulus

Aggro reduced again in mid-late 2004, this time effecting the chant dots mentioned as generating a lot of hate above, only months earlier. There is also mention of an earlier nerf to hate that came in Kunark, likely pertaining to the patch that made hymn and heals in general less problematic (linked below).

https://web.archive.org/web/20041101...x?PostID=54676

Natureboy is not online. Last active: 11/1/2004 6:14:32 AM Natureboy
Joined: 16 Mar 2004
Total Posts: 100

Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 1 04 4:12 PM
Has there been any official statement from Sony as to why they reduced agro on our songs (chants verified not sure of what else)?
Hoping it was unintentional, I would like to be able to agro kite again with friends.

barbai
Joined: 13 Feb 2003
Total Posts: 986

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 1 04 11:20 PM
do you mean if there was any change recently or when they made the change in kunark?
“Allow my song to heal your wounds, clear your mind, and hasten your blade”

JyveAFK is not online. Last active: 11/1/2004 12:05:20 AM JyveAFK
Joined: 28 Jan 2004
Total Posts: 96

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 2 04 1:26 AM
There is a HUGE difference in aggro on chants now.
Nice as it has been occasionally to twist the chants while pet holds aggro easily, it's impossible for me to aggro kite now.

Jyve

Pizzicato is not online. Last active: 11/1/2004 10:35:34 AM Pizzicato
Joined: 08 Mar 2003
Total Posts: 72

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 7 04 5:49 AM
The thing that scares me is when they try to 'fix it' if they do....

I can easily see them making it so the songs generate too much aggro again....

I know the coding of bard aggro must be very difficult and so mistakes are made...Just be thanksful it was only the chants affected and to lessen aggro... I don't fancy having the problems (even for a short while) of bard songs generating too much aggro again...
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Tangerine is not online. Last active: 10/29/2004 8:07:35 PM Tangerine
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Total Posts: 103

Re: Hate reduced on songs.
Posted: Aug 8 04 1:41 PM
Bah! WTB decent agro from my chants again. A few months ago, I was able to hold agro just fine in Time phase 1 with chants. Now, with BOC in primary, ED in secondary, and twisting 3 dots/marr, monks can steal my agro Crying. This sucks, because the times that I play for exp or questing, there are usually no tanks online with more HP than I. At least the cleric I bot doesn't steal agro with his heals, but, thats about it.....I lose agro to beasts, wizards and rogues etc, like mad, even when they wait 20% of the mobs health to assist. Only good thing I could see from this is being able to twist full dots on time gods with shaky agro, so they don't turn around to take a swipe at me, and cause deaths to my raid (and myself, of course). Haven't been in Time for a while to test this though, so not sure.
Midwinter
Tangerine Twist
No, I deleted my mana song, sry.

Relevant changes made to hate in 2001 patches.

https://web.archive.org/web/20020210...02212001.shtml

February 21st, 3:00 am
------------------------------

Today's patch contains a wide variety of enhancements and changes. Due to the number of changes being made, this list is primarily a summary. Extended descriptions of the changes and the reasoning behind them can be solicited on the EverQuest Message Boards.

...

** NPC AI - Hate **

We've made a number of changes to NPC AI, specifically to the section dealing with target-selection, or what's commonly referred to as "Hate". It is not so much that NPCs react differently to hate now than before, but that we've changed the way that hate is awarded.

We reduced the amount of hate that can be caused by a proc. Due to the high proc rates at upper levels, the amount of hate generated from procs, and the spells that were selected for those procs, made keeping the attention of the creature much too easy a task for the tank. Simply, it nearly eliminated the challenge of keeping a foes attention at levels above 50.
We've capped the amount of hate that can be awarded to most casters, specifically for debuff-type spells like the Malo and Tash series. The hate calculation for these spells takes into account the number of hitpoints of the NPC and did not "play nice" with the increased HP limit of Velious. It explains why Enchanters, for instance, would complain that casting a Tash spell would lead to near-instant death.
We've redressed the amount of hate generated by heal spells. Previously, and *partly* due to a bug, the high level heal spells such as superior heal or complete heal would generate no more hate than greater heal. In fact, so little hate was generated by these spells that it made controlling NPC aggression trivial. Heal spells will now generate an amount of hate more in line with the number of hitpoints actually healed. Due to our desire to leave the lower level game more or less untouched, two separate caps have been placed for targets level 50 or below, and 51 or above. Heal spells will generate significantly less hate for targets below level 51 than those at or above that level.
We've also re-evaluated ways that players have to reduce their own hate. While spells in place to allow this are OK, the Evade skill (possessed by rogues) let them out of their damage too easily. A rogue that successfully evaded would immediately drop to a level of hate lower than someone who was in the awareness range, but hadn't done anything to really upset the creature such as damage it or heal its foe. This problem was exacerbated by the increase of the size of the hate list implemented with Velious.

https://web.archive.org/web/20011206...03062001.shtml

March 6th, 3:00 am
------------------------------

...

** PC AI Adjustments **

Level 60 players with the taunt skill will now have a chance to taunt creatures that are level 60 to 65. Previously, players could only taunt creatures below their level.
NPCs that are mesmerized or stunned will now only add a very small amount of hate when they see you cast beneficial spells on their enemies. Prior to this, they would add full hate when they saw you do this. This is why NPCs would always jump the cleric after breaking Mez.
Fixed a bug that would cause NPCs to add too much 'temporary hate' when a player would sit down in front of them.
The maximum amount of 'hate' that an NPC can add when witnessing a heal to targets above level 50 has been decreased substantially.
Hate from heals is also now calculated at a lesser number than the number of hitpoints healed. Previously, healing one hitpoint would cause one point of hate. Now, healing 3 hitpoints will cause 2 points of hate.

Supposing these patches did lessen the hate generated by songs, not all songs were reduced or at least not to the same extent (since dots and shield of song were reported to draw aggro long after Velious in comments previously posted).