[loramin]

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'd rather have the extra mana while leveling, max level, and after torp. This is because the extra hps from the sta isn't going to help me achieve any of the prior any more efficiently than if I had the extra mana from +wis

What do you mean by "more efficiently"? Neither HP not Mana help in any way with killing efficiency, as increasing maximum anything won't make you kill faster over time. Other than stuff that literally makes you kill faster (eg. a better weapon or the JBB) the only way to kill faster is to reduce downtime (ie. get more AC, HP regen, Flowing Thought, or clickies that save you mana on buffing).

The only way I can see efficiency being relevant here is the efficiency of "not dying = leveling faster" (or not losing your camp, if you're farming). And again extra HP will keep you alive far more often than extra mana (at any level): 0 HP = death 100% of the time, 0 Mana = death far less than 100%.

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

My comment on running oom and dying around the same time is very specific to prior to landing the first slow. If the mob is slowed, you win, unless you simply aren't geared to handle the duration of the fight of the slowed mob. You can kite 22 until slowed, so mana definitely plays a role. You don't need to engage it prior to it being slowed. If slow falls off because of reslow, mana is helpful because the only way it doesn't get reslowed is if you ran oom trying to reslow it. I can't see a scenario where I have tons of mana and reslow didn't land in time, unless it was user error and I went for reslows too late (this has happened of course, everyone spaces out sometimes).

Similar to 22 a WW dragon isn't gonna get face tanked the entire time while trying to slow it. You can make some space for at least a couple slow attempts during pull to kill spot, then torping self and trying more slows.

In crypt you can attempt to malo/root take small step back to get a slow attempt in, at least 1-2 times throughout the slow attempts while torping self. Less room to work with here but there is some flexibility. Even worst case tossing a chloroblast between waiting for slow gem to refresh to buy you some more hps between slow attempts can help render you oom around the time you run out of hps and die, but at least you get an extra slow attempt off.

If you can run away from something instead of getting hit, that's good, because it keeps you alive longer. If you can Torpor yourself to (also) stay alive longer, that's good too. We agree.

But if you kill a mob a hundred times (as you do when farming), the RNG turns on you sometimes. Your stats don't matter all the times things go smoothly: they matter for the times when the shit hits the fan, and no matter how much kiting, Torporing, whatever you do, you can't land a Slow and the mob keeps hurting you.

I'm arguing that it's those "shit hits the fan" cases which matter ... and I'll even grant that in X% of those cases, having even 500 extra HP still won't save you!

But overall, in the cases where your stats do matter, having extra "life points" is going to be the best way to "stay alive".

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, I believe you're off base here. This shaman was not anywhere close to done with 99% of there shamaning, I completely disagree with that. I've listed and showed multiple times plenty of more upgrades to be had, that take significant time. I showed it was possible to cap stamina, while also continuing to acknowledge you realistically won't cap it for a long time, and that's okay because i'd prefer the extra mana from the +20 wis regardless, and because I think it's at least as, if not more, helpful than the hps from the sta, and it'll never go to waste.

Well, we'll just have to disagree about gearing a Shaman then I guess. Your "capped example" Magelo has <1k AC, only 50 MR, no instant clicky, no regen, etc. It's just my opinion, but I don't think it shows that a Barb casual is going to hit the cap anytime ...

... but even if it was ... we're quibbling over whether the Shaman will hit the cap for the last 99% their career, or just the last 97%.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have explained this multiple times. You just aren't reading.

75HP at level 60 will not help you survive a pre-slow crisis. If you are at 75HP and the mob still isn't slowed, you are dead because mobs hit for 140+ at level 60.

150-250 mana will generally not help you survive in a pre-slow crisis either. In both cases, it would come down to rare luck.

This is basically the "the whole argument is pointless" and ... I agree. I've agreed repeatedly throughout this thread that no one is going to actually notice a slight difference in their numbers in any direction.

But if we are theorcrafting, let's theorycraft, and I just don't agree with that quote: 75 HP absolutely can help you survive. Not a lot ... but a whole lot more than Mana will.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

With that being said, Mana can help you survive solo encounters at level 60. I have been in situations where

Sure it can ... but HP will help you survive a lot more often. Like I keep saying, they're literally life points: without them you die 100% of the time. It's self-evident that going OOM does not equal death 100% of the time.

Originally Posted by DeathsSilkyMist [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Realistically speaking you only need enough max HP in a solo encounter to safely pre-slow a monster most of the time.

Right, which is basically the same as saying "you only need HP for the hard part of the fight".