[loramin]

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lol, no one is saying hps don't help you survive. However, the vast majority of time you spend leveling and pre-torpor is 50+ and you aren't face tanking much at that point if you're attempting to level or gain plat in any sort of efficient fashion. So no, the extra +20 sta compared to +20 wisdom (This is the actual conversation we're trying to have) does not help you level faster.

I never said that +20 of either is going to make a huge difference; to the contrary I wrote:

Originally Posted by loramin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm not "talking absolutes", and I fully agree you could put all points in Charisma and still be perfectly happy playing that Shaman for a decade ... but we are theorycrafting on what's best for a non-high-end raid shaman here.

And if we're theorycrafting which is going to help more, you have yet to show why Mana would help more than HP.

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

the vast majority of the time you're dying in these scenarios is because you are oom AND run out of hps (I've done all of these, so yes i'm familiar with them). This is because you're not stable without slow+torp, but you have plenty of time to malo/root/kite/attempt slows/pet tanks/heal self etc. So unless you're just standing there spamming slows and not healing yourself or trying to kite/CC, you aren't dying with much mana left if any.

You and I have had very different experiences in these fights. Just to (again) make sure we're on the same page, we're talking about mobs like 22 in PoM, or Hierophant in Crypt, correct?

The vast, vast majority of the times I've died in such fights, I've had plenty of mana, but I couldn't land a slow (or reslow) in time and I died from lack of HP. Only in the extreme minority ... I'd guess well under 5% ... did I land a slow, get the fight going, battle the mob for awhile, and land a re-slow, yet I somehow ran out of mana and died.

Plus, I'm pretty sure I didn't start at max mana in any of those fights: they were always ones where I started with less than max because I was trying to beat someone to a mob. Honestly, it's almost unheard of for Loramin to start a fight with full mana and even get to OOM at the end (dead or alive), because Cann + Torpor is a really good combo.

But again, I'd welcome evidence, or just a good logical argument, for why I'm doing them wrong and most other Shaman would burn through their entire mana pool before dying.

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I offered to make a magelo, you asked for a it, and I provided it, so don't pretend I made one of a shaman at the end of their "career" when I very much didn't.

I did ask: A) I wanted to get us on the same page, but also I'll admit: B) I wanted you to give yourself enough rope to hang yourself with your argument, and you (and others) did so wonderfully.

You all provided Magelos of a Shaman who's finished 99% of their Shamaning ... further supporting my point that the kind of Shaman we're talking about (Barb, non-high-end-raid) won't hit the Stamina cap until they're almost done playing.

Originally Posted by Siberious [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Also the +sta is objectively worse than the +wis while leveling in my opinion,

The fact that you even wrote that sentence, where you used the word "objectively" in literally the same sentence that you said "in my opinion" just shows you don't even understand what the words you're using mean. It's like someone saying something is hot and cold at the same time: how do you talk to someone like that? But I genuinely do appreciate you actually addressing my points (at least mostly)!