[DeathsSilkyMist]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I wasnt really planning on getting drawn into this discussion, but here I am[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] It has at least led to me wanting to pick up my old shaman and play p99 again.

You totally should! Thanks for taking the time, I always enjoy discussion[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Min-maxing isnt the same for everyone. Barb is the best shammy race for min-maxing.

This is what I mean when I say mystique. Min/Max is factual, not personal preference. There is a Shaman race that has the best racial bonuses for the Shaman class mathematically and statistically. I have said multiple times in this thread if fashion quest is your preference, that is perfectly fine. No Shaman race will give you a huge advantage. But that isn't Min/Max, that is personal preference and fashion questing.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

First off, why does it have to be considerable? A lot of constant bonuses are also very nice. But ok, for instance if you want to farm the beetles in sebilis, there is a krup wanderer that can gate down to the guardian if its a caster. If you have to root it, you risk it gating and casting some very nasty DD while you root it. Not efficient and potencially very dangerous. Soloing in the crypt in seb, its nice with snare so that you only have to kill it down to 10% (keep it rooted till the snare actually stops the mob.) Dungeon crawling down in the hole there are a LOT of places snare is very practical. It wont always save your life, but its enough for me with a constant make your life easier.

The reason why I say considerable is because I have still yet to find a situation where Snare Neck would have given me some kind of advantage. I am not denying the utility of snare, I am mostly pointing out that Shaman strategies and popular farm locations don't really need it. This is why Troll Snare Neck isn't any kind of amazing item that changes what a Shaman can do. And as I keep saying, if there is a super rare situation that could only be done with snare, you have other options. When using the FD ring, for example, you don't get many charges to work with before you have to go back up to Sky. With Puppet Strings before it got nerfed, you had to get two and recharge them in a safe location. With only 10 charges, you didn't have a lot to work with either. It isn't anything new for Shamans to have to recharge or re-buy some clickies for very specific encounters. So if there is a very rare encounter where snare is needed, just think of Yarn Ball or Scepter as one of those items. And if you want a good, infinite snare, you can go after VP spear too.

I am glad you brought up Gating. If you watch the Chardok video, the specific reason why I am fighting the first Gravebinder in that tiny hallway is because he can Gate. If you fight a mob close enough to their spawn point, they will not Gate. His spawn point is close enough to the mobs on the left to agro them if he did Gate. But since he is close to the spawn point, he will not Gate the last few feet back to his spawn point.

In Seb specifically, I haven't had a problem with Gating mobs yet. Maybe I'll make a video about that next. The caster frogs don't have a ton of HP, and you can resist most if not all of their spells with resistance gear. You can also use root and Line of Sight to avoid their spell casting. Most of the time you can just kill the caster mobs at their spawn point. I haven't done Seb in a while, so I can't recall that specific pather. You could probably kill it without snare just fine. Let it run and tripple DoT it right before it goes to 20%.

I will totally concede that snare would be useful in this specific situation:

1. You cannot kill the Gating mob at or near it's spawn point.
2. The mob DOES run at 20%.
3. You cannot create a runway big enough to allow the mob to run unless you have Clinging Darkness.

I have yet to run into this situation, however. I specifically say Clinging Darkness in number 3 because if you need a regular snare to do the trick, then you MUST use Yarn ball or VP spear.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

These are basically the same thing. Maybe easy is the wrong word to sum up what you are saying, but I still say that this is wrong. Torpor takes 100k to get. That is a bit more then 2 fungi tunics or a couple of weeks of lucky drops if you are casual. If you want to get it yourself, you only need up to one group. Cant compare that with top end raiding. We are talking about the best race for a lvl 60 torpor shammy, not a lvl 60 torpor shammy with all the drops they want from raids, no?

Top end raiding isn't that hard, it just takes time. If you have the time to create a level 60 Torpor Shaman, you have the time to top end raid. I have done both[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.] I have already discussed the "Fungi's are easy to get" argument in another thread I think. There are four problems with this argument when talking about casual players:

1. Casual players don't have the time to sink multiple hours into a King camp. If you can do that, you can raid. That is my point. You need to be EXTREMELY lucky to get a Fungi drop in 2 hours at King. If you can play 4+ hours at a time, you could easily raid.
2. It can take a while to even get a King group. That camp is done by 3-6 player max, and they usually replace people with their friends if they can. You really need to get lucky or know people to consistently get a King group.
3. You can get horribly unlucky. I myself have spent quite a bit of time at King, and have yet to see the King even spawn, much less drop a Fungi Tunic or Fungi Staff.
4. If you are a level 60 Shaman without Torpor, you are less likely to get a King group, because King groups would prefer a Torpor Shaman. Not saying you can't get a King group as a Pre-Torpor Shaman, it simply further decreases your chances.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Lots of other places in this discussion do you say that FSI can save your life, while regen can only save you some time and snare isnt really needed. All three can save your life now and then.

I never denied that regeneration couldn't save your life. Of course it can. The reason why I keep saying "It would have saved 48 seconds at the end", is because in those videos, I never get to a point where it would have saved my life. You can do the math across the entire video, and compare my heal bar with and without Troll Regeneration. If you never get low enough for it to save your life, then all it did was save 48 seconds of recovery time, which is not very useful due to how quickly you gain resources back. That is all I am saying.

I am simply trying to deduce which ability will save your life MORE. That is what determines which ability is superior. Of course there are some situations where a little extra regeneration would have saved your life. But if that situation occurs 20% less often than an FSI save, for example, then FSI is the superior Min/Max choice. This is not because Trolls have never been saved by their regeneration, it is because Ogres have been saved by FSI MORE. And again, I have yet to find a situation where a 6 second clicky with a terrible snare would have saved my life. Most Shaman strategies and camps have a solution to the problems they face without snare.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Even though (Im guessing) you have never tried to play a torpor shammy with snare a snare clicky. Have you played a troll shammy with torpor?

I have never played a Troll Shaman. You are correct. But you really don't need to play a Troll Shaman specifically to know where snare is useful, and how much damage mitigation you get with Troll regeneration. This is another thing I kind of think as a mystique. You don't always have to play the specific race to figure out the pros/cons. I am confident enough in my knowledge of Torpor Shamans, and Everquest mechanics in general, to make these deductions. I also have video proof[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I have a 56 Troll Shadowknight, so I can easily test Troll Regeneration AND Clinging Darkness.

I also have a 24 Cleric with the Snare Neck, so I know how it operates. The cast time is long, the duration is short, the snare is bad, and resistances can happen.

Originally Posted by rabids [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would guess that some times you die with a small margin, and in all those cases being troll might have saved you. Maybe from AEs? If you die to AE's FSI doesnt help at all. Regen can save you. Anyone been below 5-10% from AE's and then survived? I have.

This is a perfect situation where Troll Regeneration could save your life, whereas FSI would not do anything. The only reason why I say this is a VERY small percentage of saving you, is because of how AoE fights typically go. I have been in a lot of them. Resistances and Max HP play a much bigger role overall than Troll Regeneration in MOST cases. I am not saying Trolls have never been saved here due to their extra Regeneration, but it is usually pretty clear cut if you are going to die or not to AoE spam. At least from my experience. In many AoE fights, Line of Sight is used to avoid AoE spam. In the fights where it cannot be avoided, the fight is usually pretty quick. Either the raid wipes, or it wins.