[Kirrund]

Originally Posted by ZiggyTheMuss [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Look at this shithead.


Now, if I showed up to a /list camp and there was some stranger just sitting there waiting for me to kill the PH for them because they can't do it themself? I would just leave or log out. I wouldn't care enough to try to wait them out but I certainly wouldn't camp the item for them. Here's another thing too: I would never even consider showing up to a /list camp if I was not capable of soloing it. It would never cross my mind to just go to a /list camp and wait for people to show up and clear it for me. I think that is much more despicable behavior than the people who refuse to help them to keep the list moving.

There is a huge difference from live back in classic and P99 now. The difference is that there is a massive amount of entitlement NOW. Funny since I would think that people would have been more entitled back when they were paying a monthly subscription.

The whining will continue no matter what happens but I would like to see some fair changes made to the list system to cut down on the amount of leeches who think they can just show up and /AFK their way to a legacy item.

So while I sort of agree with you on some parts, like not showing up to a list and being the only one there, afk, and expecting other people to just tag along and do it for you I think the list system currently probably creates less problems than if we didn't have it. The other side of the spectrum is people monopolizing it and also doing whatever they can to bully others off it (which is also currently what has been tried a few times).

But I think you're wrong compared to classic, and I think the word "entitlement" gets thrown around way too often because it's one of the most recent buzzwords everyone likes to use when it comes to describing anyone who wants to promote a sense of working together. The game was designed to be a community game with a heavy sense on helping people out and grouping together. I think it is disingenuous of you to try to argue that in Classic there wasn't a greater sense of community and a greater sense of both generosity and general working together. Yes, there were ninja looters, and there were people who stole guild banks, and there were people who bucked the trend, but from my experience people were more apt to work together and generally try to come to a reasonable solution. I played on two different servers in the 99 and 2000 era, then again shortly for 2001. Note that my definition of "working together" means everyone is contributing, not one person doing all of the work and another person doing nothing.

I think that it is pretty clear that the intent of the list was that people would be grouped and working together, that there would be a permanent group for these items, not that they would all be afk waiting on their time to solo. Instead, this is just what it has been perverted into by people who only care about themselves, because, as always, their time is more important than anyone else's.

If a person shows up to the list at the appropriate level, and is in good faith helping everyone out and making things go faster, they have put in their good faith effort, played nice, been a team player, why shouldn't they also receive some help on the back end when it's their turn? Do you think that their good behavior effort should not be rewarded by the same courtesy and respect? Do you think that's entitlement? Do you think this behavior, of putting in time and effort, and helping other people, is a negative thing? Or would you rather, on the opposite end, just have a list of people soloing something; perhaps the entire game could just be about soloing, and there would be no sense of community at all, because, after all, if you want something you need to get it yourself and not ask for anyone else to help, because they won't. The latter is an extreme, sure, but I think that calling entitlement on players who are in good faith doing their part and helping is also an extreme. The real extreme on that end would be someone sitting there doing absolutely nothing, waiting to loot.

As an addition, I guess to expect this, you would have to expect that everyone is always helping, and always working together and contributing, instead of one asshat holding things hostage and doing absolutely nothing. By the same token, you would have to expect that someone wouldn't just refuse to group in an attempt to try to fuck over the person ahead of them, if perhaps that person is a class that couldn't solo very well, or maybe had trouble sometimes depending on resists or RNG.

Personally, I treat everyone in game that I meet with the most courtesy and respect that I can, and I am more than willing to help out on a lot of things. I do not treat people like total strangers, because this is a small community and you never know when you will make a new friend, a new acquaintance, or something else. It's a 20 year old game after all, and I am here to relive a sense of community and nostalgia and do some things I never got to do. I can respect if that's not the reason you, or someone else plays, but I would think that the least we could expect from each other would be courtesy and kindness. Surely you agree.

I know this is long winded and I wasn't specifically trying to call you out or anything. I think you have been pretty vocal about the list in different threads, and that's great. Like I said, I agree with some of your points, but I wanted to ask you that above question.

When it comes to the rules, a lot of people like to argue about what they can do, instead of what they should do. After all, it is called the Play Nice Policy because that is the intent, not because they just thought up an arbitrary name for a set of rules. Seems obvious, I feel like a hell of a lot of people miss this, intentionally so.