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Originally Posted by Duie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

as you mentioned you will get upgrades as soon as vp goes into play. by tier one agreeing to this they will also get first crack at epic so the dragonscale point is mute as well as CT /Inny(which would be defaulted to you if the said guild couldnt kill them). You are also not seeing that tier 2 and 3 would be giving up what is considered top priority targets(IE curently all of kunark dragons and VS). Tiers would work and what I wrote down is a rough draft. Tier rules would have to be something everyone could live with and thus guild Leaders would have to sit down and come up with said rules.

I want you to view this from the perspective of the people who already kill almost everything. You're telling us that agreeing to not get loot will ensure that guilds which can't currently compete with us will let us have first crack at things that are in more in demand at some later abstract date. Why would TR (or asc, or TMO or whatever) agree to not kill mobs that have things we need? The immediate trade off is that we dont' have to race guilds who can't necessarily kill all of the kunark targets anyway?

VP doesn't have upgrades for every slot, and gearing up an entire guild through VP would take forever when it eventually comes out.

Something else you are missing as well. In a tier system you would not be recruiting unequiped players. By the time a player gets bored or wants to join the top dogs , they are mostlikely going to have planer and dragon loot from the old world. Human nature dictates youll still get your recruits But more likely than not, you wont have to backtrackto get the new batch equiped

There are current, longstanding members of the "tier 1" guilds who have been around for more than 6 months raiding without a BCG, or CoF, or RBB, or Inny book etc. Loot does not fall from the sky and people who have been rewarded with dragon haste or uber items don't typically jump ship. Loot actually enters the world slower here than it did in classic because of how infrequently we have patches which add in repops, and then you have to spread it out over a top heavy population

Originally Posted by Skope [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

About VP and velious: (this is something i'm stealing from a guildie who's on the fence about the issue that i didn't think about)

What about guardian bosses/mini bosses? Certain zones/encounters were meant to be cleared from start to finish in a chronological order. The velious raiding zones are a prime example. How would that work? All the bosses should spawn in order, otherwise you're defeating the purpose of the zone. You can't have vulak spawning before the others unless you plan to change the way the zone was meant to work. But with variance, right now that's exactly what would happen.

We can't keep this up forever. It needs to go sooner or later; why not now?

These are all legitimate concerns and points, i'd like to think. Not that a GM has to answer, but it would certainly be nice if they chimed in on this.

I understand your passion for this, but you're getting some things wrong. ToV North is the only velious raid zone meant to be killed "in order" to any degree (except maybe statue -> AoW). The Vulak ring event wasn't triggerable until every dragon in north was dead and we have rules for triggered spawns. Let's cross the ToV bridge when we get to it in 18 months.

Time equaled effort in classic as soon as they added long key quests. VP key can take 50-60 hours and VT key later took even longer. Certain classes' epics involve a crapton of waiting around.

Also, everyone loves to forget (or never did these raids during classic) but there was some variance in classic EQ. Kunark outdoor dragons didn't all spawn on server up. Vox/Nag had 8 or 12 hour variances. It's not like it was here, but you didn't show up at vox knowing she's spawn at 3:02 on the dot with a raid foce buffed and ready to go. Again, I led these raids and there was a few times we'd go kill naggy and vox wasn't up yet so we had to push her to the next night despite killing both of them back to back the previous week.

Originally Posted by tj218 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What about limiting the size of the guilds to say 40-50?

That would force guilds to work together (unless all guildies are on at the same time) and share the raid mobs while still keeping the "effort" and mobilization aspect in place.

This is the most insane thing in the entire thread. Force a hard cap on guilds so you have to split loot between them every time a mob spawns and you don't have enough on?