[loramin]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Though like I've mentioned lately, I'm not playing a chanter any more and have no plans to!

Heh, I actually didn't know that, but on Green/Teal I'm not playing a Shaman either, so I feel you.

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

That aside, I don't think I've argued that players were dumb (unless maybe tongue in cheeck while meaning that they just hadn't had enough playtime to figure it all out yet),

Yeah, I don't think anyone was truly arguing that, but both sides need to sum up arguments and "players were dumb" was a quick summation. I understood that you (and others) really meant "players were ignorant of specific key details that they couldn't have reasonably figured out on their own in the first three years of play" ... but we both say "players were dumb" because it's shorter [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I never figured out HS south until they showed me. I spent hundreds of hours soloing with Tecmos (blue), Tecmos (red), and Noman, but was still improving on my methods in my final streams I did with Noman after 6 years of nonstop chanting, 95% solo, on p99. I had to learn lev trick, corpsing keys, gnoming through doors, -mr gear for pets, even basic spell gem setup, I had to learn the best way to do all those things from other people. I never figured those things out all on my own. I'm not ever going to claim I'm the best chanter or the best player, but I like to think I'm pretty damn good when I want to be. And in 6 years I never pieced together even 1/4 of the stuff I would have needed to make the videos like I did in HS south/east, seb, etc. Is it a stretch to think that there weren't dozens of chanters who pieced this all together in only 3 years of classic era on live?

I love and appreciate all this specific evidence for your argument, and while specifics are great, can I abstract things instead?

I feel like I'm saying "Enchanters were a 1 in DPS on live, and they're a 10 here; 1 != 10, P99 != 100% classic yet". And I feel like what you just said was "it's hard to go from a 7 to a 10 as an Enchanter" ... which I 100% agree with.

But what I'm more focused on isn't that live was 1 and pro-Chanters like you on Blue are 10s ... I'm more talking about "why wasn't your average Enchanter on live a 7?" All the stuff you talked about explains why Enchanters on live weren't 10s, but it doesn't explain why they were 1s.

Originally Posted by Tecmos Deception [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I would LOVE to see someone playing with randomized 1-2/hr link deaths, no GCD clicky, no -mr gear, no malaise on pet, who ocassionally chain stuns NPCs and nukes, also try to charm one of these DPS monstrosities everyone keeps saying chanters can control here but couldn't on live.

I know what's going to happen.

I'm not an Enchanter player, but first off, not every player had randomized 1-2 hour link deaths.

Certainly they didn't have GCD clickies, -MR gear, and (when soloing) a pocket Shaman/Mage for debuffing ... but again, that can only explain why we're 10s, and live was a 7 or maybe 6. But live was a 1! 1 doesn't even equal 6.

Something ain't classic here.