[loramin]

Originally Posted by Senescant [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm saying that 100% of people agreeing to roll because that's what WE'VE told them to do is different than people agreeing that shady should be handled by a roll. The people who want to click have made great compromises and concessions for the people that want to roll so that the pro-roll crowd can do shady as they want. Mostly because they were bullied into doing so by some of the people there, including me at one point. I'm ashamed that I used such tactics to try and bring people over to my side of thinking. There's a different between agreeing with someone and just going along with someone.

You're 100% correct: like I said, it's almost as if it's impossible to make all the people happy all the time. It is noble to hear and listen to everyone's opinion, but not all opinions are right. If you truly don't believe that, please write me a one page essay on how the Saudi Arabian Prince's opinion that it was ok to brutally murder that Khasheegi guy was actually correct [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Again, there is nothing different between Shady and Scout except variance. For MONTHS now everyone has agreed to roll on Scout (in much larger groups than at the Shady roll). Does that mean that every last person on P99 is happy with the Scout roll? OF COURSE NOT! Virtually every time anyone posts about Scout someone (or multiple someones) in the forums chime in about how the roll sucks.

But that does not mean we should throw out the Scout roll! It doesn't even mean we should alter it. I'll keep repeating it until you get it: this is not just an "everyone is right" situation. Rolls are objectively more fair. If they weren't, you would never have everyone agreeing to them, with Shady or with Scout.

In fact:

Originally Posted by Senescant [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

I'm saying that 100% of people agreeing to roll because that's what WE'VE told them

I don't think you meant it this way, but there's a level of egotism in that statement. Like all those people at every Scout roll (we're talking about literally hundreds of players) all gave up their conscious thought and chose to do something only because someone told them to? NO! They do it because the community agreed it's the most fair system, and the community agreed to that because it IS the most fair system.

Originally Posted by Senescant [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

People, like agreements, should be flexible and should be allowed to change when presented with new/more/different ideas or opinions. We shouldn't be so rigid that seven instances of something that will happen hundreds or thousands of times over the life of the server should set the standard for everyone to follow.

Ok, in magical fairy land we can experiment with all sorts of agreements and try and find the magical one that makes everyone happy all the time.

But in the real world (or at least the fantasy fairy land of P99) if enough players stop agreeing to any agreement, that agreement ends. No matter how hard you worked to get rolls established, no matter how much you want rolls 5 days out of the week, if you convince just one player to break the existing agreement you could ruin all rolls, for everyone, forever. And if you convince enough players, you GUARANTEE that that will happen. Why are you refusing to understand this?

You don't just get to try every system out that you want. We all had one shot with Shady, and if the system we established had failed it would have fucked up all future chances of any system. Luckily for the server, you were an entirely different person a week ago, and instead of working to destroy the system, you worked to create it. For the first few days it was incredibly fragile, but now it's been going on long enough that if one lone loser breaks it there's a very good chance the staff will punish them. But again, if you convince enough people to abandon the agreement, everything you and everyone else has worked so hard for goes out the window. Quite possibly forever.

Originally Posted by Senescant [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If we who want to roll are not willing to make some of those exact same compromises how can be claim to be any better than they are? If we are to be champions for the people, should we not be champions for ALL of the people? Even when our views differ from theirs?

Very, very easily. You've fallen into the trap of believing everyone's opinion is equally valid. They are not. Again, if every opinion was equally valid Scout would never have gotten off the ground, let alone been wildly successful for months. Again, there have always been people unhappy with the Scout roll ... but that doesn't matter, because not everyone's opinion is right! If you use Autofire and/or have super low latency, you have a million times better chance of winning a Scout/Shady turn-in. In no universe is that fair, but that won't stop Autofire/low latency users from wanting a system that benefits themselves.

Scout is by far the most fair system, for everyone. It doesn't matter if not everyone is happy with it, because no system will ever make everyone happy. By definition people with unfair advantage won't want to play in a fair system; that does not mean it's "unfair" to ignore their opinion! And even if that wasn't true, it would still be impossible to make everyone happy: even if Rogean showed up in-game like Oprah and started handing out Shady rings ("here's a ring for you, and you, and ...") that still would cheese a lot of people off.

But there absolutely is 100% objectively more fair systems and less fair systems. Clicking is less fair, rolling is more. This basic logic has enabled literally hundreds of successful scout rolls without a single click, and just to repeat it once more: everything about Shady is the exact same as Scout, except the variance. If you truly think you've invented a fairer system than the one adopted by the hundreds of people involved in all of those rolls, and you truly feel that your "fairer" system is fairer because it gives a voice to people who want an unfair advantage over everyone else, and if you're willing to destroy the completely and actually fair system that everyone else involved has already agreed to just to get what you want ... fuck.